Archived DevDiscussion?.


comments:

zwikicustom.css, etc --simon, Tue, 01 Jun 2004 13:49:18 -0700 reply
Bob, thanks for the patches. I got this from #web and so didn't rush them in:

 sm: hi all.. is it perfectly harmless to have a @import for a css file that doesn't exist ?
 Dorward: sm: No, it wastes bandwidth and fills your log files up with 404 errors
 deltab: sm: "User agents may vary in how they handle URIs that designate unavailable or inapplicable resources." - http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/syndata.html#uri

Not sure how to get around that yet. I guess it is a good idea to allow a separate include stylesheet, as in plone, even though it adds one more template to think about.

Also if you can redo the issuetrackerdtml patch on content/tracker/IssueTracker.stxdtml, that one will be good to go.

zwikicustom.css, etc --Bob McElrath?, Tue, 01 Jun 2004 14:35:46 -0700 reply
simon [zwiki-wiki@zwiki.org]? wrote:

Bob, thanks for the patches. I got this from #web and so didn't rush them=
in::
=20 sm: hi all.. is it perfectly harmless to have a @import for a css file t=
hat doesn't exist ?
Dorward: sm: No, it wastes bandwidth and fills your log files up with 40=
4 errors
deltab: sm: "User agents may vary in how they handle URIs? that designate=
unavailable or inapplicable resources." - http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/syndat= a.html#uri

Well I tested with mozilla and it didn't complain about it not existing. ;)

One could also add zwikicustom.css as an empty file in the site templates.

Not sure how to get around that yet. I guess it is a good idea to allow a separate include stylesheet, as in plone, even though it adds one more template to think about.

Well the zwiki stylesheet is not available in the filesystem for others to include...so I took this route.

Or I can include a custom wikipage.pt and have it include latexwiki.css and have that include stylesheet.css, which still doesn't exist but gets magically generated, right?

I prefer in general not to have magical things happen. ZWiki is increasing in the number of magical things...many files do not exist in the ZMI but get automatically generated. When a user goes to figure out how to change one, it can be very confusing.

Also if you can redo the issuetrackerdtml patch on content/tracker/IssueT?=
racker.stxdtml, that one will be good to go.

Please add notes in the files or source tree as to which files are auto-generated and where they come from.

zwikicustom.css, etc --Simon Michael, Wed, 02 Jun 2004 08:56:30 -0700 reply

Well I tested with mozilla and it didn't complain about it not existing.

Good.. no it wouldn't complain.

One could also add zwikicustom.css as an empty file in the site templates.

Yes, though it would need a method as well since skin templates aren't always present.

Well the zwiki stylesheet is not available in the filesystem for others

skins/standard/stylesheet.css

Or I can include a custom wikipage.pt and have it include latexwiki.css and have that include stylesheet.css, which still doesn't exist but gets magically generated, right?

I prefer in general not to have magical things happen. ZWiki is increasing in the number of magical things...many files do not exist in the ZMI but get automatically generated. When a user goes to figure out how to change one, it can be very confusing.

We want to minimize confusion. Hopefully you see the stylesheet file now. What other templates are hard to figure out how to change, or what other things are too magical ?

Please add notes in the files or source tree as to which files are auto-generated and where they come from.

Didn't we speak about this before.. since then I've added skins/{standard,zwiki_plone}/README . Can you add this somewhere on the wiki where you would expect to find it, if necessary.

zwikicustom.css, etc --simon, Wed, 02 Jun 2004 09:10:07 -0700 reply
PS here are some ideas.. these are the places where I thought I might find this stuff:

zwikicustom.css, etc --Bob McElrath?, Wed, 02 Jun 2004 09:23:44 -0700 reply
Simon Michael [zwiki-wiki@zwiki.org]? wrote:

One could also add zwikicustom.css as an empty file in the site templates.
=20 Yes, though it would need a method as well since skin templates aren't=20 always present.

Well I need wikipage.pt anyway because I have to modify the DOCTYPE to add MathML?. Again this is far from optimal since I have to manually add any zwiki changes to wikipage.pt.

Well the zwiki stylesheet is not available in the filesystem for others
=20 skins/standard/stylesheet.css

I meant not available in the ZMI and there is no URL stylesheet.css. It is magically generated if I visit Page/stylesheet.

I will include Page/styleshet from my css and include my css from my wikipage.pt instead, I think that is a better solution.

Or I can include a custom wikipage.pt and have it include latexwiki.css and have that include stylesheet.css, which still doesn't exist but gets magically generated, right?

I prefer in general not to have magical things happen. ZWiki is increasing in the number of magical things...many files do not exist in the ZMI but get automatically generated. When a user goes to figure out how to change one, it can be very confusing.

=20 We want to minimize confusion. Hopefully you see the stylesheet file=20 now. What other templates are hard to figure out how to change, or what=
=20
other things are too magical ?

Many pages are actually methods or otherwise don't appear in the ZMI. A new user trying to figure out how to modify one of them won't find it in any short amount of time...

zwikicustom.css, etc --Simon Michael, Wed, 02 Jun 2004 09:32:16 -0700 reply

Many pages are actually methods or otherwise don't appear in the ZMI. A new user trying to figure out how to modify one of them won't find it in any short amount of time...

All the skin views actually are methods, which pull the corresponding template from the zodb or filesystem. The reason is that non-CMF wikis don't always have the templates installed in the zodb; the methods on the other hand can be relied on to always do the right thing.

Non-CMF wikis did used to always install templates in the ZODB by default, but this greatly increased maintenance and upgrade costs.

I think this is the right way to go, but I'm open to better ideas. Now to make customization of non-CMF wikis easier, my idea was to add buttons to a friendly wiki AdminForm. Any help with that is welcome.

zwikicustom.css, etc --Bob McElrath?, Wed, 02 Jun 2004 09:38:31 -0700 reply
Simon Michael [zwiki-wiki@zwiki.org]? wrote:

=20 All the skin views actually are methods, which pull the corresponding=20 template from the zodb or filesystem. The reason is that non-CMF wikis=20 don't always have the templates installed in the zodb; the methods on=20 the other hand can be relied on to always do the right thing. =20 Non-CMF wikis did used to always install templates in the ZODB by=20 default, but this greatly increased maintenance and upgrade costs. =20 I think this is the right way to go, but I'm open to better ideas. Now=20 to make customization of non-CMF wikis easier, my idea was to add=20 buttons to a friendly wiki AdminForm. Any help with that is welcome.

I wonder if your desire to ease upgrade costs is due to the fact that ZWiki is really in a alpha or beta state. (But quite usable for that!)

Do you think when ZWiki hits 1.0 it might be better to make all wiki's put all their files in the zodb?

At that point there will be a serious pressure for users to keep their site looking the same on upgrades. (Something I run into -- not that I don't like your skins ;)

zwikicustom.css, etc --simon, Wed, 02 Jun 2004 10:13:00 -0700 reply
Hmm I must give that some thought. What do the rest of you think ?

One of the problems is templates being out of step with the zwiki API. Usually I can keep backwards compatibility but not always. This can lead to wikis breaking after an upgrade, especially a large upgrade (many versions).

Another problem is when things don't totally break, but the wiki keeps running with an out-of-date UI. New features and improvements don't appear even after an upgrade, and some users & admins will not be aware they exist, or they wonder why the docs on zwiki.org don't seem to work for them. Perhaps breaking would be the better strategy ??

And in general: the wiki lives on for ever with users having a relatively crappy experience, wasting time and probably deciding zwiki sucks - for all the wrong reasons. Zope.org is a great example.

It's probably true that both the skin API and the UI are changing less at the moment. And I agree it's much nicer when you're getting started to find the skin templates right there in the wiki folder. And we need to take steps to encourage skinners.

A middle course which we haven't tried is to keep the methods we now have, but also install the templates in zodb by default. Then it's easy to get started with customizing, but we can still tell people to blow away some or all of the templates if they don't want to deal with upgrade hassles and want to always use the latest skins. The out-of-date UI problem exists today anyway, and perhaps we can tackle it with more warning lights and upgrade helpers.

zwikicustom.css, etc --Bob McElrath?, Wed, 02 Jun 2004 10:29:02 -0700 reply
simon [zwiki-wiki@zwiki.org]? wrote:

Hmm I must give that some thought. What do the rest of you think ? =20 One of the problems is templates being out of step with the zwiki API. Us=
ually I can keep backwards compatibility but not always. This can lead to w= ikis breaking after an upgrade, especially a large upgrade (many versions).= =20
=20 Another problem is when things don't totally break, but the wiki keeps ru=
nning with an out-of-date UI. New features and improvements don't appear ev= en after an upgrade, and some users & admins will not be aware they exist, = or they wonder why the docs on zwiki.org don't seem to work for them. Perha= ps breaking would be the better strategy ??=20
=20 And in general: the wiki lives on for ever with users having a relatively=
crappy experience, wasting time and probably deciding zwiki sucks - for al= l the wrong reasons. Zope.org is a great example.
=20 It's probably true that both the skin API and the UI are changing less at=
the moment. And I agree it's much nicer when you're getting started to fin= d the skin templates right there in the wiki folder. And we need to take st= eps to encourage skinners.
=20 A middle course which we haven't tried is to keep the methods we now have, but also install the templates in zodb by default. Then it's easy to get started with customizing, but we can still tell people to blow away some or all of the templates if they don't want to deal with upgrade hassles and want to always use the latest skins. The out-of-date UI problem exists today anyway, and perhaps we can tackle it with more warning lights and upgrade helpers.

This sounds like a maintainence nightmare.

What about some kind of "upgrade my wiki" method that will compare the contents of the zodb to the template on the filesystem, and tell the user what things are different, and allow them to install the zwiki-supplied ones?

ZWiki could detect this via a version stamp on the installed wiki and the software too. How can zwiki automatically present this to the administrator after an upgrade?

zwikicustom.css, etc --Simon Michael, Wed, 02 Jun 2004 10:42:29 -0700 reply
Yes it seems like a choice of which is most useful and creates least hassle overall: install in zodb by default and provide template upgrade helpers, or don't install in zodb and provide template install helpers. Upgrade helpers are useful in both cases.

filtered links -- Wed, 02 Jun 2004 10:45:12 -0700 reply
How did that test work? I don't see the links in the page, but I did receive them in my digest site-wide email.

filtered links --Simon Michael, Wed, 02 Jun 2004 10:54:33 -0700 reply
What test ?

zwikicustom.css, etc --Bob McElrath?, Wed, 02 Jun 2004 15:33:03 -0700 reply
Simon Michael [zwiki-wiki@zwiki.org]? wrote:

Please add notes in the files or source tree as to which files are auto-generated and where they come from.
=20 Didn't we speak about this before.. since then I've added=20 skins/{standard,zwiki_plone}/README . Can you add this somewhere on the=
=20
wiki where you would expect to find it, if necessary.

Yeah...

BTW why are there auto-generated files in darcs at all? Would it be possible to just have the sources and a makefile...or something along those lines?

zwikicustom.css, etc --Simon Michael, Thu, 03 Jun 2004 00:30:49 -0700 reply
I think the current setup minimized confusion overall.

new child button --DeanGoodmanson, Mon, 07 Jun 2004 15:28:30 -0700 reply
Radar went off. Based on the discussion weeks ago on ZopeWiki regarding "how to create a child page", I started thinking a new button on the management form would work well, but wasn't quite sure how.

After reading "...how-to parent" on the HowTos comment I felt a post was worthwhile.

Thought:

Add a button to the list called "add child" to the management page which would either redirect to the editform (page creation) or add the page as a child of the current page. The only non-straightforward factor was where to redirect on existing page. I would prefer not to direct to the new page...which isn't as easy to implement.

Note: I see I've messed up the naming of said button, and it's all inconsistent with the sub-topic language.

new child button --Simon Michael, Mon, 07 Jun 2004 15:49:48 -0700 reply
I was thinking about it again yesterday, as it happens.. I can't see how to make really clear, but the idea just won't go away..

new child button --simon, Tue, 08 Jun 2004 10:50:24 -0700 reply
I wanted this again, so I have tightened up the layout down there and added it. Nice idea!

... --simon, Tue, 08 Jun 2004 12:00:09 -0700 reply
http://online.effbot.org/2004_06_01_archive.htm#europython-2 starkiller talk is fab. Read to the end.

spam notes --simon, Wed, 09 Jun 2004 12:22:40 -0700 reply
Interestingly, that issue page (0385) has been spammed twice now.

Also, this time the spammer also gave it a +3 vote. Nice to see that working. :)

starkiller --DeanGoodmanson, Thu, 10 Jun 2004 05:26:29 -0700 reply
Starkiller pdf link is dead. What impressed you?

site upgraded to 2.7.1b1 --simon, Thu, 10 Jun 2004 09:50:48 -0700 reply

spam notes --Bob McElrath?, Thu, 10 Jun 2004 18:49:42 -0700 reply
simon [zwiki-wiki@zwiki.org]? wrote:

Interestingly, that issue page (0385) has been spammed twice now. =20 Also, this time the spammer also gave it a +3 vote. Nice to see that work=
ing. :)

Having had my SandBox spammed a couple times now...

There are some interesting suggestions attached to this slashdot article: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=3D04/06/10/218206 on the topic.

Specifically, disallow external links in the SandBox, and disallow SandBox in robots.txt. That coupled with no anonymous comments renders impotent this particular form of spamming for google-pagerank. And if it don't work...people won't do it...

SnipSnap? --DeanGoodmanson, Tue, 15 Jun 2004 07:37:20 -0700 reply
...another one of those interesting features which might be useful for a project wiki.

Overview

..then everyone will ask for the WYSIWYG editor. :-/

atomwiki --simon, Thu, 17 Jun 2004 20:12:26 -0700 reply
By way of gtodd_IDRC.. http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2004/04/14/atomwiki.html

getting rst pages -- Fri, 18 Jun 2004 01:23:42 -0700 reply
Hi,

I have various ZWiki pages in reStructuredText format. I would like to extract their content (I mean rst text, not HTML) calling them via ZClient? or xmlrpclib. How do I go for it?

TIA,

Michele Simionato

getting rst pages --DeanGoodmanson, Fri, 18 Jun 2004 12:52:31 -0700 reply
pagename/text ?

But I'm not really sure what your doing, so maybe I should check out ZopeWiki:ZClient and ZopeWiki:XmlRpcLib

atomwiki --DeanG, Fri, 18 Jun 2004 13:25:22 -0700 reply
Interesting. what's gtodd_IDRC ?

Has anybody put forth a Zwiki XML-RPC example?

summary feature obscured --DeanGoodmanson, Fri, 18 Jun 2004 13:51:18 -0700 reply
The difficulty headings are useful, but crowd out the current implementation of the summary method. ZWiki:DevDiscussion/summary

Solution: Summary method looks for first instance of a keyword otherwise starts at beginning of page. Then takes X chars text (or until next \n\n ?)

Noticed it as summary is part of the the RSS2 page.

summary feature obscured --Simon Michael, Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:05:19 -0700 reply

The difficulty headings are useful, but crowd out the current implementation of the summary method.

Ack, good point.

gtodd_thingy is an irc user.

Re: ZWiki with CPS --> CPSZWiki ;-) --Simon Michael, Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:12:34 -0700 reply
Forwarding for Nicolas Gouzy:

Hi,

I'm trying to adapt ZWiki for CPS 3. I create a little product CPSZWiki inherited from ZWikiPage. It's my first release of my product, also it is an "experimental" version ;-) If you have the time could you tell me what do you think about that http://www.cps-project.org/Public/download/essai1/view

Regards,

getting rst pages -- Sat, 19 Jun 2004 22:48:31 -0700 reply
Those links are broken for me :-( Anyway, I am trying to experiment with ZClient?. The following seems to work:

"""Post a new Wiki page or edit an old one."""
from ZPublisher.Client import call, ServerError

pagename=TestPage

try: call(http://www.partecs.net:8081/Developers/Wiki/FrontPage/edit, username=micheles, password=XXXX, page=pagename, text =This is an automatically generated TestPage.)

except ServerError: # this seems to be an idiosyncrasy of ZClient pass # ignore it

txt = call(http://www.partecs.net:8081/Developers/Wiki/%s/text % pagename, username=micheles, password=XXXX)[1]

print txt

Still I would like to know how to safely delete a given page and how to specify the type of the content (reStructuredText, HTML, etc.) Any suggestion?

Michele Simionato

spam notes --Bob McElrath?, Thu, 24 Jun 2004 09:29:50 -0700 reply
Got spammed again today.

Hitting the "changes link" (RecentChanges?) then clicking on a particular change, and hitting the "Cancel" button...does not cause the change to be reverted. Shouldn't it?

3 objectives for new functionality - any feedback appreciated -- Thu, 24 Jun 2004 13:10:37 -0700 reply
I have the following ideas I would like to bring into the zwiki functionality: 1. Like on some webpages out there, I would like to enable instant messenger icons showing when the author of this page is online. 2. For the author I would like to setup three buttons that allow him/her to easily assign/change access rights to the edited page (only me, authorized roles, everybody). 3. create a macro/script to allow an author to paste a text from somewhere else, then run this macro to identify and wikify keywords within this text automatically.

if anybody has any ideas, feedback, help is highly appreciated (jamesblond007@yahoo.com).

hello, status --SimonMichael, Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:49:41 -0700 reply
I made it down the lovely Kern, back in the city, but I'm in crunch mode at work. Site troubles are continuing but seem fixable. Next release candidate coming asap. If you see any obvious quick steps we could take to make the dev process more scalable, please post.

Editform external edit link --Bob McElrath?, Wed, 30 Jun 2004 11:02:53 -0700 reply
When editing a NEW page, the edit and external edit links that appear in the upper-right is not for the page you're editing, but for the parent page...

I think this is wrong, but difficult to fix since the page you're editing is not in the ZODB until you create it (and therefore external edit wouldn't work in any case).

Anyone have ideas to fix this? Could we fix the "edit" link and what do we do with the ExternalEditor link? Would that require modification of ExternalEditor code? (it seems incapable of creating a new page)

Editform external edit link --Simon Michael, Wed, 30 Jun 2004 11:04:12 -0700 reply
We could just hide them when creating a page.