Simon, 2002/04/01 16:07 GMT (via web):
That's right, zwikidotorg's pages are all structuredtext (except for a few like RecentChanges?, UserOptions?, SearchPage? which are structuredtextdtml). It's working as I'd expect on TestPage - how does your page differ from that one ?


John Hunter <jdhunter@ace.bsd.uchicago.edu>, 2002/04/01 16:19 GMT (via mail):

>>>>> "Simon" == Simon <zwiki@zwiki.org> writes:

Simon> That's right, zwikidotorg's pages are all structuredtext Simon> (except for a few like RecentChanges?, UserOptions?, Simon> SearchPage? which are structuredtextdtml). It's working Simon> as I'd expect on TestPage - how does your page differ from Simon> that one ?

I created a new ZWiki page on my site called TestPage also, and pasted in the exact text from your TestPage, and get the same error (pasted in full below)

Could this be a version problem? Now I am completely befuddled...

ZWiki-0-9-8 Zope 2.5.1b1 (source release, python 2.1, linux2), python 2.1.2, linux2)

No closing tag, for tag < dtml-in "PARENTS[0]?.objectValues()" >, on line 3 of TestPage

Traceback (innermost last):
  File /usr/local/Zope-2.5.1b1-src/lib/python/ZPublisher/Publish.py, line 150, in publishmodule
  File /usr/local/Zope-2.5.1b1-src/lib/python/ZPublisher/Publish.py, line 114, in publish
  File /usr/local/Zope-2.5.1b1-src/lib/python/Zope/__init__.py, line 159, in zpublisher_exception_hook
    (Object: TestPage)
  File /usr/local/Zope-2.5.1b1-src/lib/python/ZPublisher/Publish.py, line 98, in publish
  File /usr/local/Zope-2.5.1b1-src/lib/python/ZPublisher/mapply.py, line 88, in mapply
    (Object: manage_edit)
  File /usr/local/Zope-2.5.1b1-src/lib/python/ZPublisher/Publish.py, line 39, in call_object
    (Object: manage_edit)
  File /usr/local/Zope-2.5.1b1-src/lib/python/Products/ZWiki/__init_.py, line 147, in manage_edit
    (Object: TestPage)
  File /usr/local/Zope-2.5.1b1-src/lib/python/OFS/DTMLDocument.py, line 79, in manage_edit
    (Object: TestPage)
  File /usr/local/Zope-2.5.1b1-src/lib/python/DocumentTemplate/DT_String.py, line 320, in munge
    (Object: TestPage)
  File /usr/local/Zope-2.5.1b1-src/lib/python/DocumentTemplate/DT_String.py, line 340, in cook
    (Object: TestPage)
  File /usr/local/Zope-2.5.1b1-src/lib/python/DocumentTemplate/DT_String.py, line 170, in parse
    (Object: TestPage)
  File /usr/local/Zope-2.5.1b1-src/lib/python/DocumentTemplate/DT_String.py, line 208, in parse_block
    (Object: TestPage)
  File /usr/local/Zope-2.5.1b1-src/lib/python/DocumentTemplate/DT_String.py, line 58, in parse_error
    (Object: TestPage)
Document Template Parse Error: (see above)


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/01 18:35 GMT (via mail):
Big news

Zwiki has become too complex and too hard to maintain. After long thought I've come to the conclusion that the complexity of the zope framework and the clean but verbose and not-quite-powerful-enough python are really slowing development down too much to continue on this path. I feel a more smalltalkish language and a lean, purpose-built server will allow us to add features in a much more rapid and maintainable way and at the same time allow us to make things much simpler for would-be installers and users.

So, not without some soul-searching, and I realise this may come as a shock to some: I have decided to cease further development of the current product and concentrate on a new lean & mean port to Ruby (http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/) as of today's date.

Who's with me ? --Simon

Well, today I am :) - DM


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/01 18:52 GMT (via mail):

> pasted in the exact text from your TestPage, and get the same error
> (pasted in full below)

Aha, you are editing via the ZMI, which I never do. When I tried that I see the error. The problem is that zwiki's ZMI screens are the same screens used for DTML Document, and all they know is DTML Document; they don't know about wiki, structured text quoting, etc. I suppose it's a bug.. thanks for pointing it out.


Dan, 2002/04/01 18:53 GMT (via web):
Simon....

Ouch! I have become absolutely reliant on Zwiki. I've spent a lot of time with it, figuring out how it works, getting it to do stuff I need. It's your project, of course, so you can take it in whatever direction you want but I would encourage you to see if someone else in the community is willing to pick up the Zope/Python development work. This is too good a product to waste and, frankly, I think Python is so vastly superior to Ruby that I can't imagine ever being willing myself to work in Ruby.

I'd be interested, too, in a clearer understanding of what you mean when you characterize Python as "not-quite-powerful-enough" for the task. As a strong Python advocate, I'd sure like to know what walls or holes you're running into!

I don't know (because I haven't drilled that deeply) but perhaps it is possible to make the Python/Zope-based Zwiki easier to maintain by sort of starting over on the factoring of the design. Things like this tend to sort of "just grow" and get messy after a while. When doing O-O stuff, I find I usually have to throw out my first version.

I wish you luck in your Ruby adventures and I'm sure you'll build a wonderful product there. I just hope you can find a way to give Zwiki some continuity in the process. I don't 'know how big the installed base is, but I'm sure sold on it!


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/01 20:20 GMT (via mail):
Ok, it's noon here so..

April Fool!

I apologize for any momentary disruption in your reality field. :) Dan, thanks for a great post.. response to follow.


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/01 20:35 GMT (via mail):

> I'd be interested, too, in a clearer understanding of what you mean when you
> characterize Python as "not-quite-powerful-enough" for the task.

I like it very much too, and more so having worked on my first significant non-zope python project (a side project, porting a perl app).

I will say there was one tricky perl one-liner whose corresponding dozen lines of python made me feel pretty weak.. :) but I'm sure a fresh set of eyes would do much better. I find myself wanting to use nested-scope lambdas everywhere but I don't, for backwards compatibility.


> I don't know (because I haven't drilled that deeply) but perhaps it is
> possible to make the Python/Zope-based Zwiki easier to maintain by sort of
> starting over on the factoring of the design. Things like this tend to sort of
> "just grow" and get messy after a while. When doing O-O stuff, I find I
> usually have to throw out my first version.

You could well be right. My general sense is that the current architecture will be sufficient for zope 2.x, and zope 3 is the place for a brand new approach. But I'm very interested in hearing anybody's ideas on this, as a student of OO. There's a basic diagram of the current system over at ZwikiDevelopment?.


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/01 20:55 GMT (via mail):
Sorry.. my little joke got a worthier response than it deserved. :)


Dan, 2002/04/01 22:07 GMT (via web):
No apology necessary, Simon! I love this kind of joke. Suckered me right in and I don't usually fall that easily. Nice job!


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/02 00:58 GMT (via mail):
hee hee hee.. I did try to make it convincing..


Dan, 2002/04/02 01:16 GMT (via web):
I ate a little public crow on this one. Check out my Radio Web log.


Dean, 2002/04/05 06:54 GMT (via web):
(Sorry if this is a redundant question, but..) Is there a render option of just "Structured text" ?


Dean Goodmanson <goodmansond@yahoo.com>, 2002/04/05 07:00 GMT (via mail):
I wasn't able to post the following to the general discussion page:

Would you mind if I sent this one right to you?


Dean, 2002/04/05 06:34 GMT (via web):
I wanted to make all my pages "with heading" checkbox checked: Edited standard_wiki_footer: 1. comment heading

This is a hack, as evident in my not understanding of line 4. Can someone point me to the docs to learn how to turn a page

[-10:]
?? into a Discussion ?


>> End of failed GeneralQUestions? post.

Zwiki chatter: ===== 2. My formatting questions were primarily answered in examples in the SandBox , you may want to save some of those examples on a seperate page. ===== 3. I learned that the updates employ no locking- last post wins. Have you considered adding a timed lock to [edit this page]?? Is add a comment truly append, or a very fast edit? =====

Good April fools joke. Hope my headline in the Python-URL! wasn't innapropriate. (Note, the last 3 submissions were ideas not really intended for printing. :/)

Best Regards,

Dean Goodmanson http://nomad.freezope.org/weblog

__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax? http://taxes.yahoo.com/


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/05 21:05 GMT (via mail):
Hi Dean,


> Is there a render option of just "Structured text" ?

Actually no.. the structuredtextonly mode does wiki linking. To add it, you would clone the render_structuredtextonly() method in ZWikiPage.py, call it eg render_stxonlyireallymeanit, remove the two wiki-linking calls, and set your pages to stxonlyireallymeanit.


> I wanted to make all my pages "with heading" checkbox checked:

Not sure what you're asking here.. it looks like you have it figured it out, just replace the dtml-if clause with a permanent "CHECKED".


> 3. I learned that the updates employ no locking- last
> post wins. Have you considered adding a timed lock to
> [edit this page]?? Is add a comment truly append, or a
> very fast edit?

Adding a comment should be a true append, so no locking issues there. Edit does some locking - if two users (with different user names or ip addresses) edit a page simultaneously, it should detect the conflict.


> Good April fools joke. Hope my headline in the
> Python-URL! wasn't innapropriate. (Note, the last 3

Thanks, where was that ?


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/05 21:16 GMT (via mail):

> also, is it safe to download the current CVS zwiki 0.9.9 in progress and
> use?

Pretty much. Most of the time the cvs version is at least as stable as the last release; right now there are the following caveats:

Regards --Simon


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/05 21:16 GMT (via mail):
PS I forgot my standard disclaimer, which is to back up your Data.fs before an upgrade. I rarely bother with this but I always advise it since it's usually easy to do.


Simon, 2002/04/05 21:27 GMT (via web):
30-day pack, 186 -> 133Mb


Dean, 2002/04/05 23:08 GMT (via web):
Thanks for the info on the locking. My test WAS on the same browser, same IP. :( I hope my post didn't sound offensive.)

The april fools note is at Python-URL-2002/04/02:
* ZWiki Author Disillusioned...Rubymortis sets in. - see "Big news" http://zwiki.org/GeneralDiscussion
http://zwiki.org/GeneralDiscussion200204 (future archive)
-end of copy- , please note the attempt at guessing where you'll archive this page.

One question was where to learn how to interpret: dtml-if "getId()[-10:] == 'Discussion'"

A new question: Is there a structured text or html tag to ignore all tags in a section?


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/06 20:26 GMT (via mail):
zwiki@zwiki.org (Dean) writes:


> Thanks for the info on the locking. My test WAS on the same browser,
> same IP. :( I hope my post didn't sound offensive.)

Not at all!

I'm not clear on your problem - using just one ip, I would expect you won't see any locking behaviour.


> The april fools note is at ...
> please note the attempt at guessing where you'll archive this page.

Aha, thanks. I wonder how we could provide more precise urls for wiki comments.


> One question was where to learn how to interpret: dtml-if "getId()[-10:]? ==
> 'Discussion'"

Some pointers - the Zope Book for DTML, and the Python Tutorial for python (this example involves both).

In this case we are deciding whether to check the heading checkbox based on the last 10 characters of the page name (as you probably guessed). This is too complex to check with straight dtml, so a python expression is used. (dtml expresssions in quotes are assumed to be python code).

First, we call getId(). This is a general way to get the id of the current zope object as a string. Then we use python's standard slicing syntax to extract the last 10 characters of that string. And then we compare that with Discussion.


> A new question: Is there a structured text or html tag to ignore all
> tags in a section?

At the moment, here's what I tend to do for quoting in structured text. 1. use the :: construct - a paragraph ending in double quotes followed by an indented paragraph:

 like this. <html> and WikiTrail are disabled.

and 2. in dtml-enabled pages like this one, insert a space after the opening angle-bracket of any dtml tags:

 like < dtml-var quoteme>


Simon, 2002/04/06 20:29 GMT (via web):
I meant "a paragraph ending in double colons".


Simon, 2002/04/06 22:32 GMT (via web):
header/footer/editform tweaks.. tested only in mozilla, feedback welcome


2002/04/06 22:38 GMT (via web):
OK: konqueror has still the RecentChanges; zwiki_width= issue in the footer, the search box is browser-width dependent (and too narrow in any case, 1024x768) and about the shifting up of the grey bar... I think I am not completely against, but a thin grey line between the parents/Logo/cite area and the real editable text wouldn't be badly placed, in my view. [Alvaro]?


2002/04/06 22:45 GMT (via web):
prova mm


Simon, 2002/04/06 23:36 GMT (via web):
just playing around, trying various things.. I would prefer fewer lines and boxes rather than more..


Simon, 2002/04/07 00:10 GMT (via web):
This one (light gray background behind logo & title) feels not bad actually.

Re the search box, given the space constraints up there I don't think it needs to be very wide. It's a write-only field really. Yes it does fill the table cell width in modern browsers, I thought that was a good thing. Of course I don't know what you're really seeing, it might be doing something horrible on your screen.


2002/04/07 09:41 GMT (via web):
Now: I like more the header layout. The form field is two letters wide in konqueror, but nice in Gecko. Last note: appending takes place at the end (why not considering a tickbox Sending XHTML as text/html Considered Harmful for prepending, with an associate zope permission), so that it might be interesting to place last modification datetime at the footer.Just my 0.02Eur [Alvaro]?


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/08 07:18 GMT (via mail):
test6


2002/04/08 16:38 GMT (via web):
I have added a CVSRepository after succesfully installing Zwiki from CVS. When is the 0.9.9 expected?


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/08 19:09 GMT (via mail):
Hi Bob,

something like this should create a zwiki page for you in dtml:

 < dtml-call "manage_addProduct['ZWiki'].manage_addZWikiPage('NewPage',REQUEST=REQUEST)">

Once you have a page to work with, this should also work, and will be smarter about setting up the wiki page type, parent, etc.:

 < dtml-with NewPage>
 < dtml-call "create('SecondPage',REQUEST=REQUEST)">
 < dtml-call "create('ThirdPage',type='structuredtextdtml',REQUEST=REQUEST)">
 < dtml-call "create('FourthPage',text='initial text',REQUEST=REQUEST)">
 < /dtml-with>

I'm hazy on zclasses these days. Another option for you might be to use a zwiki template, eg set up a folder in /Control_Panel/Products/ZWiki containing your initial pages, then create instances of this via Add Zwiki Web. The pending zwiki release will allow additional setup to be done in a template_config script.

Please note - I cc'd this to zwiki.org, and for display purposes I needed to insert a space after each opening angle-bracket above - you should remove those.

Hope this helps, -Simon


Simon, 2002/04/08 19:18 GMT (via web):
The subscriber_list upgrading bug and the search form width in konqueror problem should be fixed now. Also checked in a mailin.py cleanup .


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/08 21:26 GMT (via mail):

> I have added a CVSRepository after succesfully installing

Cool, thanks.

I have just released 0.9.9rc1 - http://zwiki.org/releases/ZWiki-0.9.9rc1.tgz . Testers, please hammer away. If there are no major issues for a couple of days I'll release it as 0.9.9.


SimonMichael, 2002/04/08 21:34 GMT (via web):
PS - ReleaseNotes, ChangeLog?. Let's get this beast out before they get any bigger.


Simon, 2002/04/08 23:30 GMT (via web):
Experimentally turned off the header/footer on the three main tracker pages to make them less confusing. I wonder if this is better or worse.


RobertWebster?, 2002/04/09 01:51 GMT (via web):

something like this should create a zwiki page for you in dtml:

This worked perfectly:

 < dtml-call "manage_addProduct['ZWiki'].manage_addZWikiPage('NewPage',REQUEST=REQUEST)">

Once you have a page to work with, this should also work, and will be smarter about setting up the wiki page type, parent, etc.:

**But this gives Error Value: global name create is not defined**:

 < dtml-with NewPage>
 < dtml-call "create('SecondPage',REQUEST=REQUEST)">
 < dtml-call "create('ThirdPage',type='structuredtextdtml',REQUEST=REQUEST)">
 < dtml-call "create('FourthPage',text='initial text',REQUEST=REQUEST)">
 < /dtml-with>

Any thoughts?


Dan, 2002/04/09 04:22 GMT (via web):
Same problem here. The create method is part of the ZwikiPage?.py file and it seems to be being called correctly here but no luck. This is something I was just about to try to figure out how to do so I'm delighted to see this progress!


Dean, 2002/04/09 04:48 GMT (via web):
Simon:


>> I'm not clear on your problem - using just one ip, I would expect you won't see any locking behaviour.
My problem was a bad test environment.


>> I wonder how we could provide more precise urls for wiki comments.
html "name" anchors might help, but I'm not sure what to use for names. Adding another text entry for name, and then checking for uniqueness, converting to URL friendliness...yech. Perhaps more documentation on how to use the name anchor could help savvy users. Maybe an auto-numbering scheme?
This doesn't solve an archiving issue, though.

Thanks for the dtml & python help. My brain skipped a few cycles and I didn't notice the slice.

I'm glad to see that a single space can constitute an indent. :)

Off to try 0.9.9!
Is there a dtml variable I can call to display the running version of ZWiki? Is there a Zope convention for an internal version description property such as:

 < dtml-var product_version>


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/09 17:27 GMT (via mail):
zwiki@zwiki.org writes:

 > < dtml-with NewPage>
 > < dtml-call "create('SecondPage',REQUEST=REQUEST)">
 > < /dtml-with>


> Any thoughts?

Yes, the above evaluates NewPage?, it should be this:

 < dtml-with "NewPage">
 < dtml-call "create('SecondPage',REQUEST=REQUEST)">

or just:

 < dtml-call "NewPage.create('SecondPage',REQUEST=REQUEST)">

Also I fixed a small bug which may have prevented create working in a top-level folder.


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/09 17:28 GMT (via mail):
zwiki@zwiki.org (Dean) writes:
> Is there a Zope convention for an internal version description property such

I don't know.. thanks for the reminder, I have added a zwiki_version method. (Eg this site is running.. 2.0b1).


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/09 18:00 GMT (via mail):
Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com> writes:
> or just::
>
> < dtml-call "NewPage.create('SecondPage',REQUEST=REQUEST)">

PS you probably won't need the REQUEST argument unless there is authentication going on.


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/09 18:02 GMT (via mail):
http://zwiki.org/releases/ZWiki-0.9.9rc2.tgz is out. Changes:

      Bug fixes

        - render page header *after* body, so that body can turn it off
        with dtml

        - make create more robust for dtml use in a top-level folder

        - built-in ui tweaks - use colours like zwikidotorg's, make
        editform textarea smaller, remove non-useful help links

        - zwikidotorg template: include user option presets in the footer,
        make help link depend on a HelpPage, update default bookmarks

      API changes (summary)

        - new page method zwiki_version()

I hope the change to the rendering order (header after body) doesn't cause problems for anyone. Let me know.


Dan, 2002/04/09 18:58 GMT (via web):
I think I need to get the patch you mentioned, Simon, when you said, "Also I fixed a small bug which may have prevented create working in a top-level folder." But that brings up a whole set of issues for me around the question of how to maintain a Zwiki site. For example, where are changes such as the one you describe here made and stored? What is the best practice for keeping my Zwiki in synch with the best current t version?

When I tried to get the version of the Zwiki that this site is running, I ended up in a directory showing each individual file. I don't know the files well enough yet to know which one(s) I should download and replace when you make changes like this.

Beyond that, I worry a lot about changes I've made to my Zwiki (e.g.,. auto-checking the "with heading" box and expanding the size of the comment editing area, which I find far too small) when you make upgrades. Zwiki isn't factored well for such maintenance, though I'm sure down the road it will be.

So what's the best advice? Is there a page here on that subject that I'm overlooking?


Simon, 2002/04/09 19:33 GMT (via web):
Dan, that fix is in today's rc2 release. Otherwise the normal way to sync with the latest would be cvs. If you just want to grab one or more files that this server is running, you can look in [zwikidir]? as you did.

Yes dtml maintenance can be a nightmare. Things that help me: I use emacs and html mode for almost all dtml editing, both live methods on zwiki.org and the filesystem-based template on my local drive. I usually preview things in the former and copy them to the latter, then check that into cvs.

Note when you upgrade the zwiki product your existing dtml content is not affected. It may stop working, in which case you would check the "API changes" section in the release notes, and either update your dtml so it works, or start over with a current template (ie zwikidotorg) and merge in key changes from your old stuff. It might be a good idea to keep your changes in a filesystem template, or make temporary filesystem copies, so that you can diff against the canonical template and then apply your diffs to each new version.

Other ideas welcome.


Simon, 2002/04/09 19:38 GMT (via web):
So, do those preset links at the bottom left work for others ?


Dean, 2002/04/09 20:58 GMT (via web):
The preset links work well. My first impressions included: Would I lose these options if I clicked "minimal" (that's just paranoia ;) ), and Does this affect the comment line?

I sure would like more than 2 lines for the comment line. (Zope's text editing resizing comes to mind.) Ideally longer notes would be written in Notepad or Composer and cut/pasted. Thanks for keeping edits from the mailing list, I'm much less concerned about correcting mistakes.

On a more pie-in-sky perspective (head in the clouds?)...I am an outliner, and would enjoy a discussion on WikiOutlining .
Kick of with O'Reilly Networks's "Jon Udell: Instant Outlining, Instant Gratification" I'll also try to glean current thoughts on this subject from ZWiki into this dicussion.


Simon, 2002/04/09 23:12 GMT (via web):
Cleaned up ZwikiInstallation? and started a faq.

Switching between presets should preserve all or most useroptions. I thought of hiding the comment form for minimal, or making it bigger for full, but haven't. I think a large comment form distracts from the page content but I can see it needs to be more configurable.


Simon, 2002/04/09 23:21 GMT (via web):
PS interesting link!


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/10 16:40 GMT (via mail):
Oh, I see what you were saying - sounds like healthy paranoia.

They could be full, simple, light.


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/10 17:25 GMT (via mail):
http://zwiki.org/releases/ZWiki-0.9.9rc3.tgz released:

      Bug fixes

        - zwikidotorg template: removed SiteLogo capability & obsolete
        zwiki_homepage reference, added secret feature for minimalists.

Pulling the logo from SiteLogo? was just too big a hole for the default template.


Dean, 2002/04/10 23:22 GMT (via web):
full,simple,light vs. full,simple,minimal : minimal seems to complement full better.

Besides modifying the busyness of the page, is the page-load time also noticable?

So I can reduce the number of redundant questions, where can I go to find feature discussions?
(Such as the secret feature for minimalists)

Considering shortcut keys for < br>, < hr> ,
-Dean


2002/04/11 02:24 GMT (via web):
One of those basic questions that may be obvious to many, but why, exactly, doesn't zwiki utilize line breaks in text I enter? For example: if I type apple, pear, peach (each of those had a return after it...check the source), but the zwiki display forgets that and just runs them together). I want apple,
pear,
peach
without having to put a (br) HTML tag after each. Can't this be made easier?? If I want run-on text, i can just keep typing without pressing return in my input. If I type a return, then I want a newline. I have seen other wikis that remember your returns and create new lines with them. Why not here? -ChrisChris?


2002/04/11 02:46 GMT (via web):
Does the current version have a page RENAME feature yet? I've noticed some pages where the content is gone and just a note saying "the name of this page is now xxxx". Twiki has a feature that renames a page AND renames all the references to that page throughout the Wiki. It would be nice, but the Twiki docs made it sound like a difficult feature. -ChrisChris?


Dean, 2002/04/11 05:07 GMT (via web):
A few general (open ended?) discussion questions...Wiki's have captured my imagination.

  1. Can can I get DTML free install for use on free zope servers such as http://www.freezope.org ? (Perhaps the security warnings have been taken care of and this is no longer relevant.)
  2. I would like to be able to cut and paste the source from a MS Word HTML export to a wiki page. I don't need it to ever get back into .doc format. I've had mixed results. Stripping < html> through < body> tags seem a start...where can I learn about acceptable HTML tags?
  3. I would like to extend the syntax to include custom tags for section/text handlers. Example: A python code highlighting section could be tagged with < code_python> and the contents rendered bt the method or script in the zwiki folder object: code_python I'm sure the tag syntax needs help.
  4. Wiki seems like a great starting point for a "thumbnail view"/scratchpad of a web site. Anyone had luck with this?

Uh-oh, after midnight...I make my best mistakes and social blunders at this point. - Dean


2002/04/11 05:50 GMT (via web):
Concerning DeleteMe, I have a suggestion. I am guessing (my programmer mind at work) that when you "delete" a page to the RecycleBin?, you have actually implemented one of two constructs: On pages with words that used to link to that now deleted page, the linking wiki-word either (1) still "sees" the page object (in the recycle bin), but that object has a boolean that means "pretend you do not see me" or (2) the page object is actually residing in a container where the wiki-word lookups do not look. (My programmer preference is #1, but I don't know how you did it.) My suggestion is the following: Right now with the way you have implemented the DeleteMe feature, I cannot tell by looking at a wiki-word with a question mark whether it is simply a new word without info yet, or whether it used to exist and has since been put in the recycle bin. Basically, if the code can tell that a page is in the recycle bin instead of just not existing (scenario #1), then why not displaying the wiki-word in a different format to show that the page does exist, but is deleted. For example: show a superscript question mark with a letter d (?d) or maybe an exclamation point instead of question mark (!) or maybe (RB) -ChrisChris?


simon, 2002/04/11 18:57 GMT (via web):
There's an import error in rc2 & rc3, will be fixed in rc4.


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/12 16:00 GMT (via mail):
Hey, it's the first Zope Bug Day, in progress on #zope-dev. Me, I've got my hands full with Zwiki. (Currently working out yet another python import path issue).

If you're not involved with zope bugfixing, why not dive into ZwikiIssueTracker and post a bugfix/solution/clarification/new bug report or three ?


Dean, 2002/04/12 19:18 GMT (via web):
I had hopes of validating a strange occurance of different size bold text on my visitor page (DeanGoodmanson) through the StructuredMoose? page.


Simon, 2002/04/12 19:36 GMT (via web):
I've just realized.. this must be Endless Bug Week.


Simon, 2002/04/12 22:28 GMT (via web):
Not only am I still in total import hell, but stuff just keeps breaking in unexpected ways, left, right, zwiki, work projects, what have you.


2002/04/13 18:36 GMT (via web):
Sorry for the calamity, Simon. Note sure if import hell == from hell import Murphy, or installation problems.. I tried to install 0.9.9rc3 on ZoPe 2.4 windows ME and had import problems with html_quote... I tried mucking with my PythonPath? variable, but that didn't help. I'm going to jump to 2.5 and see if that helps, this isn't hte first product install to fail this way, and not being a live or often used server I haven't dug into it much. Mentioning it in case my scenario can be of assistance. - DeanGoodmanson (Later this weekend I'll be upgrading an OSX install from 0.9? to 0.99...should I get newer sources from CVS beyond RC3?)


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/13 19:56 GMT (via mail):
Ok, paths fixed and http://zwiki.org/releases/ZWiki-0.9.9rc4.tgz is out:

        - zwikidotorg template: UserOptions tweaks - make default editform
        dimensions match built-in default (60x15); don't use PST as
        default timezone

        - zwikidotorg template: make timezone conversion in the header
        more robust

        - remove a local PYTHONPATH dependency from all imports, and 
        make unit tests more robust across zope versions & invocation
        methods

        - wikimail: multipart message handling got broken in the cleanup, 
        fixed

        - wikimail: make inclusion of poster's username in mailout From
        header more robust


RobertWebster?, 2002/04/14 14:30 GMT (via web):
Does anyone know how the sidebar menu is implemented here: Linkopings University


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/14 17:47 GMT (via mail):
Cool.. that's the most "mainstream" looking zwiki site I've seen so far. The sidebar is defined in their standard_wiki_header method (http://www.ida.liu.se/zope/divisions/sas/standard_wiki_header ).


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/14 17:52 GMT (via mail):
zwiki@zwiki.org writes:
> Sorry for the calamity, Simon. Note sure if import hell == from hell

Thanks Dean. No calamity, just the usual stuff you never expect when you're trying to get a release out by friday.. ("NOBODY expects the spanish inquisition!!")

Re your html_quote import problem - if you can pin it on zwiki I'll be happy to fix it. I'm aiming to be compatible with zope 2.2 onwards.


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/14 17:55 GMT (via mail):

> I had hopes of validating a strange occurance of different size bold
> text on my visitor page (DeanGoodmanson) through the StructuredMoose?

They seem the same size on both pages now.. is this still an issue ?


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/14 18:11 GMT (via mail):

> I like the new DeleteMe feature. I have a suggestion. I imagine (my

That one ain't new :)


> put in the recycle bin. Basically, if the code can tell that a page is
> in the recycle bin instead of just not existing (scenario #1), then why
> not displaying the wiki-word in a different format to show the page
> does exist, but is deleted. -ChrisChris? --- forwarded from

Deleted pages are moved to a recycle_bin subfolder. Something like this before the last else block in ZWikiPage.py:_wikilink_replace() should work:

        # or it it's found in recycle_bin, indicate this
        elif (hasattr(self.aq_parent,'recycle_bin') and
              hasattr(self.aq_parent.recycle_bin, m)):
            return '%s(<a href="%s/recycle_bin/%s">deleted</a>)' % \
                   (m, self.wiki_url(),quote(m))

Does anyone use DeleteMe ?


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/14 18:25 GMT (via mail):
zwiki@zwiki.org (Dean) writes:
> 1. Can can I get DTML free install for use on free zope servers such as
> http://www.freezope.org ? (Perhaps the security warnings have been taken
> care of and this is no longer relevant.)

The security situation has not really changed since zope 2.2. There's no reason you couldn't build a zwiki web with no editable DTML, but I haven't seen it done - most zwiki webs rely on some embedded DTML, if only for RecentChanges?. When I shipped zodb-based wiki templates they used to have these pages locked down and all the others defaulting to non-DTML page types. That way as long as the admin disallowed changing page types, you had no editable embedded DTML. These days I ship the filesystem-based zwikidotorg template which I think sets up no special permissions, so it's up to the admin.

Does this help ?


> 2. I would like to be able to cut and paste the source from a MS Word
> HTML export to a wiki page. I don't need it to ever get back into .doc

That should be fine, if you select one of the "Plain HTML" page types. Otherwise you'll get unwanted interference from structured text and wiki linking.


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/14 18:31 GMT (via mail):

> Does the current version have a page RENAME feature yet? I've noticed

Not yet.. I think I promised to look at it for 0.9.10 if noone else does. I'm not so convinced it's both an urgent need and a good idea (makes broken links more likely.. and WikiWikiWeb has done fine without it) so I haven't done it before now. Also I don't know how exactly it should work. Ideas ? If you still have the url for Twiki or others' docs, please post.


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/14 18:41 GMT (via mail):

> One of those basic questions that may be obvious to many, but why, exactly,
> doesn't zwiki utilize line breaks in text I enter? For example: if I type

You're asking about structured text, which is the mode used on most current zwiki pages. It follows HTML's behaviour of wrapping and filling paragraphs. They do this because it usually gives more reliable and pretty formatting across a wide range of output media than displaying the original line breaks from the page source.

I'm not sure if there is a markup system which would do the normal wrapping and filling yet also allow you to break lines when you really want, in a natural way (in a zwiki/stx page you would need a <br>).

For similar reasons, structured text & HTML replace multiple blank lines between paragraphs with a single blank line. I have seen some markup modes which honour your multiple blank lines (eg emacs wiki mode's), which I like.


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/14 18:43 GMT (via mail):

> Besides modifying the busyness of the page, is the page-load time also
> noticable?

I wouldn't think so.. it's more about the visual complexity of the page.


> So I can reduce the number of redundant questions, where can I go to find
> feature discussions?
> (Such as the secret feature for minimalists)

Your next step after ReleaseNotes would be ChangeLog?, then browsing cvs.


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/14 20:09 GMT (via mail):
I ran into the very slow comment issue last week and did some investigation. Using top on the server I saw some comments resulting in a runaway cpu-bound curl process. If I killed this process the pending comment in my web browser would immediately complete (successfully).

The curl process was invoked by the mailin alias, which happens to be on the same server. My guess is that the server processes a comment from the web; as final step calls mailhost.send to deliver it to subscribers; this blocks until delivery is complete; it attempts to deliver to the local mailin alias, because I use the wiki's mailin address as a harmless To header; the alias tries to post to zope; some kind of zope multithreading/locking contention ensues, and the curl process starts taking an ever-increasing percentage of cpu.

On this theory and for efficiency I changed mailouts to use "To: ;" instead (ie no To:). Zwiki.org has been using this for the last couple of days and I haven't noticed the slow comments but I don't know if it was a fix. Unfortunately I did notice that it messes up wide replies, because you always get a "Cc: ;" - harmless but messy. So for now I have changed back to using "To: wikiaddress". Further investigation needed - I'd appreciate any further ideas on the runaway process scenario.


simon, 2002/04/14 21:58 GMT (via web):
Updated ZwikiTesting?, ZopeTesting?.

I think I prefer the comment form without the 3-pixel gray border. Comments ?


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/14 23:10 GMT (via mail):
http://zwiki.org/releases/ZWiki-0.9.9rc5.tgz is out:

        - fix bracketed path linking (IssueNo0139)

        - missed some old-style imports in the subscription code


Dean, 2002/04/15 00:16 GMT (via web):
Re: StructuredMoose?


>> I had hopes of validating a strange occurance of different size bold
>> text on my visitor page (DeanGoodmanson) through the StructuredMoose?


>They seem the same size on both pages now.. is this still an issue ?

The M's are the appropriate size, but the lines "Review & Comments" and "I heard a good review for.." are different.


Dean, 2002/04/15 01:54 GMT (via web):

>>I think I prefer the comment form without the 3-pixel gray border. Comments ?

Could you provide an example Wiki TestPage that shows the comment form in all it's variants?

Beyond a grey text background, I can't tell a different looking at the 3 versions I have readily available.


simon, 2002/04/15 02:39 GMT (via web):
Ok.. "I heard a good review for" is a stx heading (it's a single-line paragraph followed by an indented paragraph).


AlV, 2002/04/15 08:13 GMT (via web):
My opinions:

  1. I like very much the current comment form.
  2. I really use DeleteMe
  3. I would implement DeleteMe, RenameMe and whatever as an API exposed through a small form, like the search form. It should be permission-configurable whether you let users see the "command box" or not. This has a big usability advantage: you don't get into loading for editing the page you want to delete/rename. In addition, it is extensible (you can make the command box responsive to more and more commands as needs grow). Finally, it follows the zope trend to use "the third way": administration from webpages instead of ZMI. Tell me if I haven't managed to explain it, [Alvaro]?


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/15 16:33 GMT (via mail):
I hear you.. but I'd rather not add too many controls to the page.

In the page footer, I think they could be a searchbox-like rename form + rename button, and a delete button. That seems like too many controls, given that I intend rename/delete to be available most of the time.

Or, they could be a rename link leading to a form for entering the name, and a delete link, protected from robots by requiring a username or one-time cookie confirmation.

Or, for a slightly less immediate delete, the rename form could include the delete button, or do a delete if the new name is blank.

The simplest thing I can think of is adding these controls in the advanced edit form.


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/15 16:55 GMT (via mail):
Added a mockup. I think it impacts normal usability, but clearly would be handy during heavy refactoring. You could make a case that it should appear in the footer when using the "full" preset and advanced edit options are turned on ?


AlV, 2002/04/15 20:52 GMT (via web):
I'd rather prefer a box letting you issue a command followed by a list of arguments, and believe that it would be ok to place the box in the advanced interface.


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/15 22:07 GMT (via mail):
like a ZShell? command window ?


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/16 01:36 GMT (via mail):
If you find zope crashing when you view a certain zwiki page, it may be a known issue with python 2.1.1. I had two of these; upgrading to python 2.1.3 fixed one but not the other. It seems zope 2.5.1 is likely to fix the last of this issue.

Nice russian squishdot page: http://www.linux-ink.ru:8100/Linux-ink/f01_Forum I'd like to see zwiki 0.9.10 doing the same..


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/16 03:05 GMT (via mail):
http://zwiki.org/releases/ZWiki-0.9.9rc6.tgz :

        - recognize , in urls (IssueNo0130)

        - remove comment form border


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/16 14:56 GMT (via mail):
Zwiki 0.9.9 has been released. Focus: unit tests, wikimail enhancements, general fixes and a permissions rename.

http://zwiki.org/ReleaseNotes

http://www.zope.org/Members/simon/ZWiki/ZWiki-0.9.9.tgz/view or http://zwiki.org/releases/ZWiki-0.9.9.tgz

We hope you like it! --the Zwiki elves


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/16 15:11 GMT (via mail):
Oh My God. :)

I have just learned to add a new final checklist item before release: CHECK THE TRACKER. :)

How to handle this..


BillSeitz, 2002/04/16 15:42 GMT (via web):
Does that mean you did it this time for 0.9.9, or you didn't, and we should wait for some little fix...?


I like the power of Zope, but there isnt enough formatting functionality in here. Can I use StructuredTextNG? I couldnt make much sense of their topic. How about uploading files? I couldnt see that anywhere. Maybe I'll just look at TWiki again and try to strip some of the fat out of it.


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/16 15:57 GMT (via mail):
That's what I was asking myself.. well since the zope.org & zope-announce posts haven't gone out and it's been such a short interval, I have slipstreamed the fix into 0.9.9 and re-uploaded to the usual places.

Sorry, all! Did anyone get burned ? The aborted release's tarball was 93709 bytes, the good one is 93734 bytes and has a CHANGES.txt the same as ReleaseNotes.


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/16 16:06 GMT (via mail):
In other words, http://zwiki.org/releases/ZWiki-0.9.9.tgz is GOOD TO GO. Next release will be 0.9.10.


Simon, 2002/04/16 19:54 GMT (via web):
re formatting options.. you are using stxNG already, and check out AdvancedEditOptions? to find file upload and alternate formatting modes.


simon, 2002/04/17 00:33 GMT (via web):
What permission should be required to rename pages ?


simon, 2002/04/17 00:42 GMT (via web):
And, since a rename/delete form in the footer is convenient, but also a big invitation to abuse on public sites, for who/when should it appear ? Eg only for managers ? Only for authenticated or username-cookie-owning users with advanced edit options turned on and using the full preset ? ... ?


Dean Goodmanson <goodmansond@yahoo.com>, 2002/04/17 03:00 GMT (via mail):
--- Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com> wrote:
> It seems zope
> 2.5.1 is likely to fix
> the last of this issue.
> I hope to use 0.9.9 on Zope 2.4, default Python. Do you have more details to the crash so I can test it before making that version "public" ? I'm looking forward to the email features.

Using a pre-built Zope on an OS Sending XHTML as text/html Considered Harmful system, and haven't yet ventured into building Python & Zope on my own.


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/17 15:43 GMT (via mail):
Not really.. the zope & pythonlabs folks have been working on it, I believe it's unlikely to be encountered by most people and it's nothing to do with zwiki. So, upgrade away.


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/17 15:46 GMT (via mail):

> I noticed on my 0.9.4 version that adding a graphic did not qualify for a
> change email. This seems to be a potential vandalism entry point.. ..looks
> like I was right as I didn't find it available to me in the ZWiki
> edit_this_page.


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/17 17:12 GMT (via mail):
hmm, mailin setup not quite right.. I sent that last comment to bugs@zwiki.org but it ended up here.


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/17 17:41 GMT (via mail):
This will affect zwiki.org (hopefully with good results).


> Sorry for the short notice but Hydrogen will be taken down for
> slightly over an hour today at 11:00PM MST. During that time we will
> be adding another stick of ram and hard drive to the system. Which
> should eliminate any space problems / speed up the system.
>
> It will also be moved to its new hosting location at a much higher
> bandwidth facility then it current has ...
> One down fall of
> that is we are having to assign everyone new IP's on that system (if you
> have an IP of 216.17.175.??? you will be affected). We should be able
> to keep the old addresses up for atleast a bit while we are waiting for
> the DNS propagation to go though. Again I appologize for the short delay.


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/17 17:48 GMT (via mail):
Mailing tracker issues to bugs@zwiki.org works again ([#142 0.9.9's mailin.py with no options recognizes tracker@... as tracker issues, but not bugs@...]?)


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/18 19:05 GMT (via mail):
I can't view zwiki.org right now, though it's up.. possibly a dns propagation issue, hopefully back to normal soon.


Dean, 2002/04/19 14:44 GMT (via web):
ZWiki reviewed in the new ZopeMag? : http://www.zopemag.com/Issue001/index.html

It's not a free article, though. A summary would be appreciated. I have not read it.


RobertWebster?, 2002/04/19 22:51 GMT (via web):
At zwiki.org when I click on full, simple, or minimal I'm redirected back to the page. On my own Zope server, I get stuck at the UserOptions page even though the URL seems to have the proper redirect. What am I doing wrong?


2002/04/20 15:00 GMT (via web):
Robert, That's my experience also. I upgrade from 0.9.4 to 0.9.9.

For the time being, I replaced that section with : "Bookmarks:" to let my users know what the center links represented.


Dean, 2002/04/20 18:36 GMT (via web):
Is this a bug?
I am not currently getting a send-out for a new page creation.

Zope 2.4.3, ZWiki 0.9.9. mailout_policy : edits Subscribed to the whole Wiki.

I get mailings on edits & comments, but when I created the page I did not get an email.
Not sure if this is the place to post it, but not sure where the "Is this a bug?" depository is.


Dean, 2002/04/22 15:59 GMT (via web):

>> I was looking into doing an edit preview. It's not so easy right now, because all the render methods expect an actual ZWikiPage instance >> to work with, especially the dtml modes which make use of DTMLDocument's functionality. We need a better factoring here. - Simon, 2,2002

Got a feature request for this one. Armchair coder comment: Would a temporary ZWiki TestPage work here? Created after the Input on Preview? Ugly as this may sound, a pop-up preview may even be accepted to deal with "back" snags.

"Never made a multiple input page myself"

-Dean


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/23 17:07 GMT (via mail):
zwiki@zwiki.org (Dean) writes:
> I get mailings on edits & comments, but when I created the page I did
> not get an email.

Right, not currently implemented.


> Not sure if this is the place to post it, but not sure where the "Is
> this a bug?" depository is.

You found it! GeneralDiscussion. Or drop in the tracker and see if it floats.


> Got a feature request for this one. Armchair coder comment: Would a
> temporary ZWiki TestPage work here? Created after the Input on Preview? Ugly

Yes, I think we have to make a temporary page. I got as far as ruling out dtml hackery for this, I think it needs a support method in the product.


> The last edited link in the standard_wiki_footer doesn't display page
> data as I might expect.
>
> I tried turning on security settings on my own site, but the default
> setting to "make the link appear" (view history) still didn't flow
> right.

What's this about.. do you mean the timestamp in the header of 0.9.9's zwikidotorg template ?


Dean, 2002/04/23 17:37 GMT (via web):

>> What's this about.. do you mean the timestamp in the header of 0.9.9's zwikidotorg template ?

Yes, and I mis-wrote: standard_wiki_header . I was expecting the page to display something along the lines of "current edit"


2002/04/24 06:22 GMT (via web):
Hierarchy view is useful, but the current implementation takes way too much space and is unappealing (i think). May I suggest a simple method as an alternative - one tried and tested by Yahoo - just show the pages one after another separated by colons. The last (current) page can be in bold. Like this:

Sports : Football : Teams : Western League : Rams

doesn't this look much better?!

(Note: i tried to make this coding change myself to submit as patch, but got lost in the details. Sorry.) - ChrisChris?


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/24 17:09 GMT (via mail):

> Yes, and I mis-wrote: standard_wiki_header . I was expecting the page to
> display something along the lines of "current edit"

Yes it should show the last diff along with links to full history, previous edit etc - but the diff seems to often be blank. Is that what you're seeing ? It needs looking at again. I think there may be a tracker issue for it..


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/24 17:12 GMT (via mail):

> Sports : Football : Teams :
> Western League : Rams

That crossed my mind too.. I'm not sure about it, I'd love to try it out on a site where someone has set it up. NB I think I would want the page title to remain large and prominent.


AlV, 2002/04/24 17:53 GMT (via web):
I like the CrisCris? proposal


DeanGoodmanson, 2002/04/24 18:16 GMT (via web):

> Sports : Football : Teams : Western League : Rams

Is this possible under a Simple or Minimal view?

The seperator also needs to discern itself as a heirarchy or "cookie crumb" style navigation tool from a WikiTrails? divider, commonly |


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/24 19:06 GMT (via mail):

> The seperator also needs to discern itself as a heirarchy or "cookie crumb"
> style navigation tool from a WikiTrails? divider, commonly |

Yes. For me the current outline style seems to communicate "hierarchy" more clearly than a linear list. But we should figure out how to do the latter.


2002/04/24 22:15 GMT (via web):
With my own ZWiki 0.9.9 instance the mozilla-based browsers get confused with forms and display ridiculously small windows, both for add a comment (in horizontal) and for edit (in vertical). But when visiting Zwiki.org everything seems ok... Has anybody run into the same problem. Zope 2.5.1 compiled from source, i386debianlinux2.4.18, Zwiki 0.9.9.


AlV, 2002/04/24 22:25 GMT (via web):
Additional data: it also happens with 2.5.0. Things work however, with konqueror and netscape!


AlV, 2002/04/24 22:30 GMT (via web):
Additional data: it also happens with 2.5.0. Things work however, with konqueror and netscape!


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/24 22:40 GMT (via mail):

> ZWiki reviewed in the new ZopeMag? ...
> It's not a free article, though. A summary would be appreciated by someone
> who's read it.

Well I bit the bullet and subscribed, but sadly it seems to be a future article rather than a current one.

The interview with Ward was very worthwhile reading, as you'd expect.


DeanGoodmanson, 2002/04/25 14:18 GMT (via web):
My UserOptions? aren't being fully saved on my Mac OS9 IE5.0 browser. When I set them they appear to be set from the UserOptins? screen, but lost when i move out of that screen. Turned all caching off and still plagued.

DeanGoodmanson

(Note the User name and email address cookie DO seem to work.)


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/25 15:25 GMT (via mail):
Dean, try adding dtml-var REQUEST to your UserOptions? page so you can see what cookies are being saved.

Immediately after posting all the options are present via REQUEST.form, so you need to refresh (not post) the page once more to see the cookies take effect.


Dean, 2002/04/25 17:31 GMT (via web):

>> try adding dtml-var REQUEST ...

the "cookies" section seems appropriate, but the "other" is not. The HTTP_COOKIE also doens't match the values shown on the refresh page. Stopping before guessing, such as "I wonder if the _'s have anything to do with it..."


Chris, 2002/04/27 15:13 GMT (via web):
Hi, I don't know if this has already been asked elsewhere (I did look - I promise :) ). Has anyone found a nice way to "flatten" a ZWiki site? As in, make a printable copy of the entire wiki?

I should say why I'd want to do something that sounds so insane. ZWiki has become very successful for my area at work. We throw all of our documentation into it, for quick editing, searching, etc. All the things we love wikis for. In case the lights go out, at the beginning we were also maintaining the old docs that get turned into pdfs once in a while. But, those docs don't get updated much anymore. We keep putting so much into the ZWiki, that maintaining the printable documents has become an excersize in insanity.

I've created an external zope script which works with ZWiki. It does a simple walk of the map returned by the WikiNesting? class. It makes a simple "table of contents", then throws all the ZwikiPage? files (bare - without a header or footer) into one large webpage.

It works, but it's not a very elegant way of doing this task. My little test machine cannot handle the load of generating such a monsterous page, and Zope core-dumps.

Has anyone else found better ways to make hard-copies out of a wiki? If not, I'll be happy to throw the script I've got somewhere for people to look at and improve. :)


rossini@blindglobe.net (A.J. Rossini), 2002/04/27 16:00 GMT (via mail):

>>>>> "zwiki" == zwiki <zwiki@zwiki.org> writes:

zwiki> Has anyone else found better ways to make hard-copies out of a wiki? If not, zwiki> I'll be happy to throw the script I've got somewhere for people to look at and zwiki> improve. :)

Interesting idea. So basically, you are ordering the pages by nesting and alphabetically?

Are you interested in a simple (ascii) text output, or do you want some kind of fancy-smancy indexed PDF doc?

I'd be interested in seeing the script, though...!

(from tony rossini@u.washington.edu).


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/27 16:45 GMT (via mail):
Me too, post away. I wonder if your zope crash is due to the known crashing issue with python <2.1.3. I wonder why it's so slow for you - are you doing "page(bare=1)" which interprets dtml, or "page.read()" which doesn't ?

Ideally I'd like to able to choose


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/27 16:46 GMT (via mail):

> I just upgraded my old ZWiki to 0.99 and my old vertical bar delimited
> tables stopped displaying as tables. I assume this is intended, but I'm
> just checking--didn't see anything about it in the release notes.

I forget which version of zwiki or zope causes this transition, but you need to use stxNG-style tables now. I think there are some examples on http://zwiki.org/TestPage.


simon, 2002/04/27 16:53 GMT (via web):
Any coders out there interested in discussing/implementing a real traditional-style RecentChanges? ? It's really time we had one.


2002/04/28 05:09 GMT (via web):
Simon - the http://zwiki.org/TestPage link doesn't work, but http://www.zwiki.org/TestPage does... (tony)


Chris, 2002/04/28 12:39 GMT (via web):
Hi Again,

(Sorry to the subscribers for double posting this... first version had some dtml install instructions that broke this page. Oops! )

Following up to my post yesterday regarding a flattened wiki...

Firstly: I found what was causing the core-dump, and it wasn't my script, or zwiki's fault. I'd forgotten that I'd tweaked the "annoyingquote" part of the standard_wiki_header. It returns a random line, rather than the last line. And zwiki_showquote was always on. :) Whenever the annoyingquote page tried to render itself, it was going off to put itself into it's header.... a nice little infinite loop that crashed things well and truely. I killed my annoying quotes, and everything seemed to behave.

So: The script currently reads the nesting map from WikiNesting?. It visits each zwiki page named, and asks the page to return the rendered version of itself.

This is still pretty time intensive for large wiki webs. My little test machine still times- out before finishing our big monster. The main server I've got our zwiki web running on doesn't have a problem, and finishes the request fairly quickly.

I like the idea of choosing whether to process the dtml or not. I wasn't aware of the page.read() method - I'll have a look at that.

Currently, the script only goes through the entire wiki. But, it walks the nesting map and sorts it all into "numbered" sections before doing anything, so it would be pretty easy to set a minimum and maximum section range to return (eg. section "1.1" through to "1.1.20", or just "1.1" and everything under it).

Throwing in a choice of sort order is a good idea too (hierarchy or alphabetical). Currently, the hierarchy supplies the "table of contents". I'm not too sure if that's of a lot of use, since throwing everything into one big webpage doesn't really allow page numbering. I guess it's just a rough guide.

An alphabetical sort order could provide a similar simplistic "index" on the end?

Anyway - the code is here: http://homes.jcu.edu.au/~cccan/ZWikiHardCopy.py.txt

Bear in mind this was my first real attempt to "grokk" the zwiki inards, so there are probably many better ways to do this.

I'm going to keep tinkering with it, so if anyone has improvement ideas, or makes improvements faster than I do, I'd love to know.


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/28 15:50 GMT (via mail):

> Simon - the http://zwiki.org/TestPage link doesn't work, but
> http://www.zwiki.org/TestPage does...

A temporary dns propagation issue ? They both resolve to 198.49.126.120 here. This changed recently.


JosYule, 2002/04/29 15:15 GMT (via web):
Hey ya'll. I've got a best practices question for you. We are currently using Zwiki for our inhouse project documentation. We have multiple projects, each is its own Zwiki. I'm interested in getting the mailin tool working for all the projects, to capture all emails about each project. I'm just not sure the best way to have all these wiki's configured, in Zope, to best work with mailin. Also, if there should be a meta tracker, on the intranet zwiki, to track all bugs/issues with all projects, or try to capture bugs for each project in that project's ziki's tracker. Really, this is an email addressing issue, as we could make an email account for each project (projectA, projectB) and have the mailin forward that email to the proper zwiki, however, how do we then add the mailin bug tracking? Do we have a projectABugs email address as well?

Many questions, many different ways of solving/implementing this. I'm just looking for other ideas, to help me look at the possibilities! Many thanks, JosYule.


DeanGoodmanson, 2002/04/29 18:25 GMT (via web):
I'm consistently baffled/irritated with StructuredText. see: TextFormattingSurprises . For every 4 handy features theres 1 re-formatting zinger. The learning curve is not steap, but not necesarily natural. I'm glad Wiki's don't have a paper-clip helper agent, but you can certainly relate to my frustration if you've had Word reformat your documents & lists.

Man would I like a set of properties to turn on and off particular features of StructuredText...

Thanks for listening to my rant...I'm willing to work towards making ZWiki easier for new users unwilling to wrestle with the word processor. Those users usually have some modern word processing experience and possibley a bit of HTML, but are likely those that are willing to add double spaces but not willing to painfully indent for heirarchial views. Suggestions?


DeanGoodmanson, 2002/04/29 18:44 GMT (via web):
An an after-thought, e.g. rant induced cognitive dissonance , it is an important thought to keep in mind that Wiki's make web page creation easier, and StructuredText provide shortcuts. So much so that it's easy to begin to expect a painless documentation utopia. I do expect an additional text formatting language beyong plain text & html to be handy, but would still like to minimize its affects. Bold, italic, bullet point lists, monospace font text blocks are all I'd really want to start with. Beyond that HTML seems most appropriate. I just noticed that TextFormattingRules contain most of my minimal feature set, and I've found the rest through error and sometimes trial. OK I'm done.


"Jay, Dylan" ;, 2002/04/30 00:52 GMT (via mail):
Backlink macro idea

Here are several related wishes and a possible solution

Solutions?

Here are the lines I've been thinking along. I edit my ToDoDjay? page and put in something like:: The following is a list of my tasks ShowBackLinks:ToDoDjay

Then it works sort of like a [ZPT]? metal macro. It will fill in the page with:: The following is a list of my tasks ShowBackLinks:ToDoDjay - APageToDo? - SomethingElse?

This is sorted on reverse modification time. When any backlink changes then this text is again altered in the ToDoDjay? page. This means that subscriptions to ToDoDjay? are triggered. It also means that ToDoDjay? appears in the RecentChanges? etc (it has recently changed).

Any thoughts? Critisize at will


Simon, 2002/04/30 16:06 GMT (via web):
So you would cache the backlinks list within the page text, instead of (as well as ?) calculating them on the fly. To update these I suppose after each page edit you'd go through all links in the old and new version and update their backlinks lists. Seeing ToDoDjay? in the recent changes just because someone linked to it seems weird to me though.


Simon, 2002/04/30 16:18 GMT (via web):
Dean - I agree about stx. I think it was a great step forward for programmers, especially zope and stx-familiar programmers who don't mind the surprises and can easily find workarounds. There are too many surprises for non-technical users though; this aspect could be improved but it has not received the developer focus it would need.

The situation is further complicated for zwiki users because they are generaly using some mixed brew or other of stx/html/dtml/wikilinks, whether they know it or not. It would be interesting to know what proportion of surprises are due to plain stx vs. zwiki's variants.

There's certainly more tuning that we could do to reduce surprises without giving up the advantages of a simple markup language. Also the emacs-wiki markup I mentioned elsewhere would be a good alternative for us to try. One unavoidable problem with stx is the heavy use of indentation, which is not usable for most users.


Simon, 2002/04/30 16:20 GMT (via web):
PS if zwiki shipped with classicwiki as the default page type, would we be hearing of these problems ?


Simon, 2002/04/30 16:28 GMT (via web):
Jos - I'm interested in these questions too. Re the mailin setup, it sounds like this would do what you need: one "mailin" external method in your root folder; one email alias per wiki, posting to "mailin" in the context of that wiki's folder. Now to post tracker issues, you could either send to the standard mailin addresses with "(tracker)" added, or, set up an extra email alias per wiki named "SOMETHINGtracker?" or "SOMETHINGbugs?" and send to that. See TRACKERADDREXP in mailin.py to customize further. Does that help ?


Simon, 2002/04/30 16:43 GMT (via web):
I just switched to the simple skin and saw FastChanges? in the quote. I like this for three reasons.

I did some thinking re implementing a static WikiWikiWeb-style recent changes page. That one needs support in the product. But I wonder if a zcatalog-based implementation can take it's place ?


JosYule, 2002/04/30 16:52 GMT (via web):
Crap - i've been using that style of fastChanges on my site for a while, i would have posted it if i'd know that was useful (mostly just an issue with my code that i can't believe that anybody else would find it useful. Its an issue. I'm working on it ;) the code that i've been using is:

 RecentChanges: < dtml-in "aq_parent.objectValues(spec='ZWiki TestPage')" sort=bobobase_modification_time reverse start=1 end=6> [< dtml-var "id()">], < /dtml-in>... 


Simon, 2002/04/30 17:01 GMT (via web):
Heh. Well it's time to bring out yer hacks!

Wouldn't that be quite a bit slower on a large site, since it's accessing all of the objectValues ? Trying on TestPage


Simon, 2002/04/30 17:05 GMT (via web):
Maybe not.

NB there's an interaction between FrontPage's excerpting of GeneralDiscussion and stx which means you need to follow an indented-quoted region with an extra newline or something else when posting, otherwise two comments will run together. Anyone should feel free to fix this.


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/30 17:16 GMT (via mail):
Yes we'll still need a traditional RecentChanges? because it provides more of a logging function that dynamic queries can't. We'll probably rename the existing RecentChanges?/RecentChangesZC? to AllPages or something like that, make it a more flexible search/filter/sorting form, possibly even roll in optional hierarchal display and use it as the contents ?


JosYule, 2002/04/30 17:19 GMT (via web):
Just checked out the StyleSheet? page, after looking into the FrontPage's issues wrt excerpting these discussions. I was wondering where everyone is with moving from hardcoded STYLE="blah:blah" to using a global CSS? It would see to me to simplify some of the presentation issues (conformity, same look available everywhere, etc). Also, if there is an interest in supporting user defined styles, this could be more easily accomplished using CSS. There are things in CSS that older browser do not support, but for most case's, it degrades gracefully (so hard-core Lynx users need not fret! :). Anyway, seeing that you like to tweak the look everyonce and a while, it might be easier to define some CSS classes, that can then be applied - this might be especially useful for the tracker and front-page, where people might want to change its look...


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/30 17:39 GMT (via mail):
Currently the append/comment methods can be called, and the comment form is displayed, if the user has Add Comments or Edit Pages permission.

I'm thinking of requiring Add Comments permission for these things. This would seem simpler and would make it easy to disable the comment form without also disabling page editing. Any problems with this approach ?


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/30 17:47 GMT (via mail):
The ability to use global CSS for a wiki seems like a must. Is it simply a matter of adding an embedded or linked stylesheet to standard_wiki_header, and then using the styles in the various page elements ?

Also, could we improve the user skin selection by switching stylesheets, instead of checking a bunch of useroptions ?

StyleSheet? adds the refinement of per-page stylesheets. Which might be useful, I'd like to see the UI first.


Jos Yule <jos@trapeze.com>, 2002/04/30 17:49 GMT (via mail):
That sounds good to me - there may be times where you just want folks to comment on a page you are editing...


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/30 17:52 GMT (via mail):
FYI I just saw one of those runaway mailin curl processes, causing the whole site to be unresponsive for about a minute. I'd love to know how that happens.


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/30 17:59 GMT (via mail):

> StyleSheet? adds the refinement of per-page stylesheets. Which might be
> useful, I'd like to see the UI first.

Oh, I guess it's a ZMI-only thing. So if I needed that I would just implement it in standard_wiki_header, rather than in the product code.


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/30 18:16 GMT (via mail):
Another proposal, aimed at simplifying the UI for casual users: don't show the "with heading" checkbox, and always post with comment headings, unless advanced edit options are enabled. Thoughts ?


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/30 18:37 GMT (via mail):
Dylan posted:
> - subsciptions that don't modify the page. I don't think subscription
> information should really be kept in a page. I think a central subscriber
> object is more appropriate. That's how I'd implement it anyway

A central subscriber registry has some pros and cons; but nb subscriptions aren't kept in the page (they were once). They're a property. Is the problem that the timestamp gets bumped when subscriptions change ? A solution would be to save our last_edit_time instead of using bobobase_modification_time.


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/30 18:39 GMT (via mail):
zwiki@zwiki.org (Chris) writes:
> I'm going to keep tinkering with it, so if anyone has improvement ideas,
> or makes improvements faster than I do, I'd love to know.

Chris - thanks for this, keep us posted. I'll try it on this site one of these days.


MattBradshaw, 2002/04/30 18:55 GMT (via web):
hello. :)

is there any (easy) way to make zwiki use relative urls instead of absolute? it's my understanding that absolute urls are evil... they'll mess up https/http and also mess up any zwiki embedding efforts.


2002/04/30 19:20 GMT (via web):
Hello too! :)

Two questions and an observation.

  1. I want to set my wiki so that "add a comment" shows up on every page, even for anonymous users. I can't get this to work. I have set the permissions in the wiki (Security tab, all ...Zwiki..." have 4 checkboxes). Even when I log in, then view the Wiki pages, most of the time I can't edit. (Zope 2.4.2 on MacOSX?, ZWiki 0.9.9, browser = Mozilla0.9.9).
  2. Running Zope 2.5.1 on Windows2000Server, I installed ZWiki 0.9.9 in $zope/lib/python/Products/ and restarted Zope. No joy: ZWiki doesn't show up in my "Select type to add..." popup menu. Zope itself runs fine.

With my own ZWiki 0.9.9 instance the mozilla-based browsers get confused with forms and display ridiculously small windows, both for add a comment (in horizontal) and for edit (in vertical)

I also get this on my Mac (see above for config info)


simon, 2002/04/30 19:25 GMT (via web):
Yes there is; search for "drastic" in ZWikiPage.py, switch back to the old line of code. You may find incorrect urls when browsing around the zwikidotorg template's editform, and your site may become more vulnerable to TheRobotProblem (infinite urls). I'd like to know.


Simon, 2002/04/30 20:05 GMT (via web):
I have just checked some page rename/delete support into cvs. The zwikidotorg template displays this in the footer if you have the Manager role and have advanced edit options turned on. Here on zwiki.org you'll see it if you have a non-blank username and advanced edit options turned on.

Careful, these are powerful buttons. If you rename with "update backlinks" checked, all occurrences of the page name will be changed throughout the wiki.


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/04/30 20:40 GMT (via mail):
One more comment and I'm out of here. Just at the moment I am seeing 100% occurence of the slow-comment-posting phenomenon. As I watch the server's top processes in another window (pretty nice, that!) I see one runaway curl process; I kill -9 it; a second curl process; kill -9 again; then zope gets busy and the post completes itself. If you're running into this for the moment you might want to mail in your comments instead.


Bill Seitz <fluxent@yahoo.com>, 2002/04/30 21:55 GMT (via mail):
Time to roll over this page, I think. It takes forever to render...


Bill Seitz <fluxent@yahoo.com>, 2002/04/30 22:01 GMT (via mail):
An idea I've had for editing longish structured individual pages: use the buzz outliner, which is written in Python and uses OPML as its native format, and then in Zope write code for translating between OPML (which is brain-dead simple) and StructuredText. Dealing with the stx features that don't map to OPML well (e.g. tables) could be ugly... (of course this ties you to a machine where Buzz is installed...) Someday...


Bill Seitz <fluxent@yahoo.com>, 2002/04/30 22:06 GMT (via mail):
A couple BackLinks thoughts:


"Jay, Dylan" <djay@avaya.com>, 2002/04/30 23:45 GMT (via mail):


> Dylan posted:
> > - subsciptions that don't modify the page. I don't think
> subscription
> > information should really be kept in a page. I think a central
> subscriber
> > object is more appropriate. That's how I'd implement it anyway
>
> A central subscriber registry has some pros and cons; but nb
> subscriptions
> aren't kept in the page (they were once). They're a property. Is the

I meant page object.


> problem that the timestamp gets bumped when subscriptions change ? A

yes.


> solution would be to save our last_edit_time instead of using
> bobobase_modification_time.

Not a nice change since bobobase_modification_time is a standard (as close as Zope gets to it). That reduces the ability of other tools to leverage off Wiki pages being just standard just simple content objects.

Personally I think it's getting to the stage where ZWiki is storing user information all over the place where what is needed is an object per user. I have a wiki with many urls which means the cookies are all set to different things. TWiki I think uses a page per person which is edited by them to change their options. For anonymous sites you could still do this by associating a cookie with the right user page.

Just throwing half baked ideas into the mix here.