Simon Michael, 2002/07/01 05:29 GMT (via mail):
"Jay, Dylan" <djay@avaya.com> writes:
>> - how to increase awareness of known bugs & solutions in
>> current releases ?
>
> How about, CurrentBugs? and ChangesLog? type pages being released as
> default pages in a release. These would be linked to the FrontPage and
> have links to the last info on zwiki.org

Yes.. I am inclined to add links to the default template (ReleaseNotes, KnownIssues, ZwikiIssueTracker) rather than include copies.


>> - how to increase awareness and ease of upgrading to latest
>> code & template ?
>
> Upgrading is still a pain. Every upgrade I have to find and delete the
> default pages and headers/footers and then copy over the new set from a
> newly created Zwiki folder.

Yes. Can you say more about how CMF does it ?

We could document the procedure better.

We could enhance the built-in standard_wiki_header/standard_wiki_footer/editform/backlinks and advise people to avoid customizing them for simpler upgrades.

Re merge: I was thinking Add Zwiki Web should merge objects into an existing folder if you give one. I wasn't thinking of overwriting existing objects (dtml methods, pages...) with the same name - do you think that's what it should do ?


>> - how to improve people's experiences at zwiki.org ?
>
> Knowing how old info is I think is helpful for any wiki and something
> zwiki doesn't handle 100% well. I think I saw this one on another
> wiki. Use tool tip on links to say how old the page it links to is
> (could just use the ALT tag to do this), and who last edited the page.

Check. Are there still issues with knowing how old pages are ? I would like to have a simple rating system also.


Simon Michael, 2002/07/01 05:34 GMT (via mail):
"Jay, Dylan" <djay@avaya.com> writes:
> A comment on a similar theme would be to turn all cababilites on by
> default and let people turn them off. Uploading images is a function
> that most people don't know about because they have to turn it on.

Funny, I was thinking of turning everything off by default. I agree with your point though.


Jay, Dylan, 2002/07/01 06:46 GMT (via mail):

> "Jay, Dylan" <djay@avaya.com> writes:
> > A comment on a similar theme would be to turn all cababilites on
> by
> > default and let people turn them off. Uploading images is a
> function
> > that most people don't know about because they have to turn it
> on.
>
> Funny, I was thinking of turning everything off by default.
> I agree with your point though.

It's easier to make a decision about things you know and don't want, than things you don't know but want. I think it's intuitive to use a Customize button to de-clutter or optimize a display, but not to add new useful features.


Jay, Dylan, 2002/07/01 07:01 GMT (via mail):

> >> - how to increase awareness and ease of upgrading to latest
> >> code & template ?
> >
> > Upgrading is still a pain. Every upgrade I have to find and delete
> the
> > default pages and headers/footers and then copy over the
> new set from
> a
> > newly created Zwiki folder.
>
> Yes. Can you say more about how CMF does it ?
>
> We could document the procedure better.

I'm no expert on CMF but from memory they have overloading type arrangement. One folder contains the read only default pages (these come from the disk product). You can "click to customize", which makes a copy in a second folder and allows you to edit it. The aquisition hierarchy then checks the customized folder before the defaults.

Doing this in ZWiki might be a bit harder however since you would then have to change the folder that the pages live in, where it is currently just a standard folder. Perhaps there is someway for a subfolder to insert inself into the aquisition tree? Perhaps look at TransparentFolder?.


> We could enhance the built-in
> standard_wiki_header/standard_wiki_footer/editform/backlinks
> and advise
> people to avoid customizing them for simpler upgrades.
>
> Re merge: I was thinking Add Zwiki Web should merge objects into an
> existing folder if you give one. I wasn't thinking of
> overwriting existing
> objects (dtml methods, pages...) with the same name - do you
> think that's
> what it should do ?

Auto merge is potentially nasty. I think some kind of overloading heirachy would be the go. In an upgade the default pages get changed but not the customized ones. If the user wants to do a manual merge then they are free to do so.

To really make this work however there needs to be a really good seperation of logic and presentation. ie, if I want to customize just the look of the wiki_footer, then I shouldn't have to copy accross any new DTML code when it get's upgraded. Page templates work pretty well for this, with their slots etc. I'd seriously think about using them. They are pretty cool.


> >> - how to improve people's experiences at zwiki.org ?
> >
> > Knowing how old info is I think is helpful for any wiki and
> something
> > zwiki doesn't handle 100% well. I think I saw this one on another
> > wiki. Use tool tip on links to say how old the page it links to
> is
> > (could just use the ALT tag to do this), and who last edited the
> page.
>
> Check. Are there still issues with knowing how old pages are ?
> I would like to have a simple rating system also.

What kind of rating? Like "is this page useful?". Is that moving away from a framework into more of an application?


Mark Chambers, 2002/07/01 07:46 GMT (via mail):
For what it's worth, I agree with turning them on by default. At least new users (like myself) know what is available and can look for a way to turn stuff off.

Simon Michael wrote:


> "Jay, Dylan" <djay@avaya.com> writes:
> > A comment on a similar theme would be to turn all cababilites on
> by
> > default and let people turn them off. Uploading images is a
> function
> > that most people don't know about because they have to turn it
> on.
>
> Funny, I was thinking of turning everything off by default.
> I agree with your point though.
>
> --
> forwarded from http://zwiki.org/GeneralDiscussion


Simon Michael, 2002/07/01 10:09 GMT (via mail):
Correction re prelinking: I was confused about the link rendering. Link renderings are not cached between page views, they are regenerated every time. They are cached for the duration of the page render - a minor optimization to avoid redoing work for repeated links. So they should be stored in a temporary variable, not in a page attribute, and there will be no page writes at view time and no need for the special handling of link titles.

Re filtering autoresponders, perhaps the main problem is not that zwiki doesn't know how to filter their responses, but rather that zwiki mailouts don't include the mailing list headers which would cause most autoresponders to stay quiet.


Simon Michael, 2002/07/01 10:10 GMT (via mail):
Argh, this bounced when I was rebooting the server. Should have come before the previous post.

zwiki@zwiki.org (Jay, Dylan) writes:
> Don't pre-render the page. Perhaps cache some expensive stuff like
> working out what's a link or not, but not the actual page rendering.

That was my intention.. I cache the structured text formatting, and the link names and locations; both of these are expensive. Then I went further and cached the rendered links without thinking about it too much.

You would expect link rendering to be quick, but this too can be expensive at present (due to name lookups for freeform links). If it was made fast (perhaps via zcatalog) we could forget about caching link renderings, and then the hack of rendering link titles separately wouldn't be necessary, and also viewing the page would never generate a write.

I think the current arrangement works and will generally require the server to do less work. I'll stick with it for the moment.


> Use a ZCatalog. Put the last modified time as metadata. That's one of
> the main reasons to use a catalog, to cache data in one place so you
> don't have to wake up lots of objects.

Yes, that should take care of that problem. I think such cases should check for a catalog and use it as an accelerator if available.


> Don't solve a solved problem. Integrate with mailman. Look how big their
> auto-responder code is, why do you want to reinvent that? I think a
> tight integration between wiki and listserver would be a hot feature.

I did, but unfortunately couldn't find the bit where they filter other auto-responders. But I guess you're right, it's time to take a closer look at integration (zmailman).

Thanks for all the ideas.


JohnGreenaway, 2002/07/01 12:48 GMT (via web):

> I'm looking for examples or ideas for detecting autoresponder replies (out of office, etc) in the mailin script..

Could simply filter out any replies with "Out of Office" in the subject. That would deal with Exchange at least. Not sure what other servers auto replies look like. There are some mailing list headers (RFC 2369 has examples), would like to think email software would be clever enough not to auto reply to messages containg any of them - not sure if they are. Anyone who's got auto replies set for the Internet rather than just an intranet is asking for trouble though...


2002/07/01 18:01 GMT (via web):
Interview with MoinMoin wiki developer Juergen Hermann : http://europython.zope.nl/interviews/entries/juergen_hermann

No mention of ZWiki. :-(

Interest & good points about "wiki virus" & common wiki confusion.


DeanGoodmanson, 2002/07/02 00:37 GMT (via web):
Thanks for the feedback about which Wiki version to promote. Currently Freezope host's 0.82 (?) ...and I've gotten very used to 0.99.

I haven't learned yet the issues incurred (beyond basic changes to default wiki objects) to move a semi-established wiki site up a signification version #.

( Open Source: [major].[significant][minor] ? Commercial: [major].[minor][point] ? )

Comments appreciated.

Particular problem: Changing the page-type of the default pages in an 0.8 version to structured text, html, dtml and of course Wiki. Currently I think the default is structured text.


Simon Michael, 2002/07/02 11:33 GMT (via mail):
zwiki@zwiki.org (DeanGoodmanson) writes:
> I haven't learned yet the issues incurred (beyond basic changes to
> default wiki objects) to move a semi-established wiki site up a
> signification version #.

Hi Dean.. there are some upgrading notes on ZwikiInstallation?. Don't know if that helps.

( Open Source: [major].[significant][minor] ? Commercial:

Updated FrontPage so that included text like the above gets properly line-quoted.


> Particular problem: Changing the page-type of the default pages in an 0.8
> version to structured text, html, dtml and of course Wiki. Currently I think
> the default is structured text.

What's the problem ?

Zwiki should handle routine page type upgrades in the way you'd want. Here's the current conversion table from ZWikiPage.py -> upgrade(). Types on the left are converted to types on the right.:

        # upgrade old page types
        # choose pre-formatting & pre-linking variants where possible
        changedpagetypes = {
            # early zwiki
            'Structured Text'    :'stxprelinkhtml',
            'structuredtext_dtml':'stxprelinkdtmlhtml',
            'HTML'               :'prelinkhtml',
            'html_dtml'          :'prelinkdtmlhtml',
            'Classic Wiki'       :'wwmlprelink',
            'Plain Text'         :'plaintext',
            # pre-0.9.10
            'stxprelinkdtml'     :'stxprelinkdtmlhtml',
            'structuredtextdtml' :'stxprelinkdtmlhtml',
            'dtmlstructuredtext' :'stxprelinkdtmlhtml',
            'structuredtext'     :'stxprelinkhtml',
            'structuredtextonly' :'stxprelink',
            'classicwiki'        :'wwmlprelink',
            'htmldtml'           :'prelinkdtmlhtml',
            # I want to reuse the 'html' type, so leave it be.  Old 'html'
            # pages will lose their wikilinks; add to release notes and
            # let people fix manually.
            'plainhtmldtml'      :'dtmlhtml',
            'plainhtml'          :'html',
            }

This happens as pages are viewed. There is also a new upgradeAll method in cvs (this morning) for doing batch upgrades. It requires that you have Manage properties permission on the folder. As well as upgrading it will clear any rendering caches and pre-render the page. From now on it will be a good idea to run this once after a zwiki upgrade. It has trouble completing a run through a large wiki sometimes; you can watch it's progress in the stupid log file if you set your priority threshold to BLATHER.


Simon Michael, 2002/07/02 11:41 GMT (via mail):
zwiki@zwiki.org (JohnGreenaway) writes:
> Could simply filter out any replies with "Out of Office" in the subject.

It does that now, and also zwiki mailouts now include proper mailing list headers so with luck most auto-responders will ignore them.


Dean Goodmanson 2002/07/02 14:05 GMT (via web):
Simon,


>> Updated FrontPage so that included text like the above gets properly line-quoted.

I noticed (and appreciate) the version info on the front page. Is that what you were refering to?


>> ...page types... > Whats the problem?

  1. I was trying to use the 0.9 page type values to set a page's properties.
  2. I want to set the default page type for my entire Wiki (all new pages created. I don't mind overwriting the existing ones by hand.)
  3. With the freezope 0.8 version I set a page to stxprelinkdtml didn't work. structuredtextdtml seemed to work (and allows html)

Thanks for the page type list, that helped a lot.

...still baffled why freezope and NIP's free zope hosting are using such an old version of ZWiki.


DeanGoodmanson 2002/07/02 14:08 GMT (via web):
Speaking of "out of the office", I put the question on back burner (sub-conscience?) and was reminded of it's existance when I came across this message and found it obscurely humourus:

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pythonmac-sig/2002-June/005750.html

then again...maybe it was just getting near the end of the day.

(note: Time for a GeneralDiscussion200206 rollup.)


JohnGreenaway, 2002/07/02 19:22 GMT (via web):
OK. Own up. Who's stolen the diff links?


Simon Michael, 2002/07/03 09:27 GMT (via mail):
The handling of pre-linking, dynamic link titles and zodb writes has been straightened out for now. Prelinking pages do cause one zodb write on first view after a link target has been created or deleted. Any reason we should worry about this for the moment ?


Simon Michael, 2002/07/03 11:48 GMT (via mail):
zwiki@zwiki.org (Jay, Dylan) writes:
> arrangement. One folder contains the read only default pages (these
> come from the disk product). You can "click to customize", which makes a
> copy in a second folder and allows you to edit it. The aquisition

In addition to the wiki pages, a new zwikidotorg wiki uses (at least) these DTML methods:

                         zwiki provides    instantiated in a     
                         built-in default  new zwikidotorg       
                         if not found ?    wiki ?                   

 index_html              no                yes                
 standard_wiki_header    rudimentary       yes                
 standard_wiki_footer    rudimentary       yes                
 backlinks               rudimentary       yes                
 editform                rudimentary       yes                
 subscribeform           full-featured     no                    

These should be handled consistently. How about if we provide a full-featured built-in default for all six - I think the zwikidotorg UI is now good enough for this purpose - and remove the DTML methods from the zwikidotorg template. As long as that UI meets your needs, your wiki will just be a folder containing wiki pages and upgrades will be very much easier. I think this is a good next step, with "Click to customize" and easier upgrades of customized methods to be addressed later. I agree zwiki + ZPT should be explored but it's not on my list for 0.9.10.


> What kind of rating? Like "is this page useful?". Is that moving away
> from a framework into more of an application?

Yes. It's certainly in the "optional features" category but I think most wikis have the problem that it's difficult to pick out the pages that matter from the ones that don't, and a simple "vote this page up/down" capability might be generally useful.


Simon Michael, 2002/07/03 12:11 GMT (via mail):
zwiki@zwiki.org writes:


>> Updated FrontPage so that included text like the above gets properly
>> line-quoted.
>
> I noticed (and appreciate) the version info on the front page. Is that
> what you were refering to?

No I don't think so.. I was referring to this line in your post, which was being linked on FrontPage due to a flaw in the dtml:

 !( Open Source: [major].[significant][minor] ?    Commercial: [major].[minor][point]  ? )

What does it mean by the way ?


> 2. I want to set the default page type for my entire Wiki (all new pages
> created. I don't mind overwriting the existing ones by hand.)

Ok, set the standard_page_type folder property - cf QuickReference. I'm not sure which version introduced that though.


> 3. With the freezope 0.8 version I set a page to stxprelinkdtml didn't work.
> structuredtextdtml seemed to work (and allows html) ...
> Thanks for the page type list, that helped a lot.

Good, see AllAboutPageTypes? for more.


Simon Michael, 2002/07/03 13:39 GMT (via mail):
Feel like a change today. Tint background.


Simon Michael, 2002/07/03 13:57 GMT (via mail):

> ZWiki Behavior: When creating a hypertext link via "something here" ,
> the "http://reference", one cannot place a colon within the "something
> here" part. We track book titles within a bibliography. Often, book
> titles have sub-titles separated by a colon.

I don't understand.. this:

 "some: where", http://somewhere

seems to work:

some: where


DeanGoodmanson, 2002/07/03 14:09 GMT (via web):

>> !( Open Source: [major]?.[significant]?[minor]? ? Commercial: [major]?.[minor]?[point]? ? )


>What does it mean by the way ?

Open Source projects seem more conservative in version numbers than commercial products. I was trying to get an idea what the ZWiki Version numbering scheme meant. How drastic is a change from 0.9x to 0.9y, and likewise 0.x# to 0.y0 .


Simon Michael, 2002/07/03 14:32 GMT (via mail):
The zwiki version numbering isn't very satisfactory right now.. I don't want to call it 1.0 yet; I want to do more frequent releases but 0.10.x seems like a silly number and I'm not going to start using four numbers. So the version number increments have been getting smaller while the changes are getting larger. After we pass the magic 1.0 threshold things should be better.

  1. 9.9 -> 0.9.10 will be quite a significant upgrade. I have had to wait longer to release 0.9.10 than I wanted so despite our testing it will probably generate lots of bugfixes & change requests. 0.9.11 should probably follow in short order.


Simon Michael, 2002/07/03 14:34 GMT (via mail):
zwiki@zwiki.org (JohnGreenaway) writes:
> OK. Own up. Who's stolen the diff links?

Aha, it was me. I had broken linkTitle's prettyprint argument.


Jay, Dylan, 2002/07/03 23:57 GMT (via mail):

> zwiki@zwiki.org (Jay, Dylan) writes:
> > arrangement. One folder contains the read only default pages
> (these
> > come from the disk product). You can "click to customize", which
> makes a
> > copy in a second folder and allows you to edit it. The aquisition
>
> In addition to the wiki pages, a new zwikidotorg wiki uses (at least)
> these DTML methods::
>
> zwiki provides instantiated in a
> built-in default new zwikidotorg
> if not found ? wiki ?
>
> index_html no yes
> standard_wiki_header rudimentary yes
> standard_wiki_footer rudimentary yes
> backlinks rudimentary yes
> editform rudimentary yes
> subscribeform full-featured no
>
> These should be handled consistently. How about if we provide a
> full-featured built-in default for all six - I think the
> zwikidotorg UI is
> now good enough for this purpose - and remove the DTML
> methods from the
> zwikidotorg template. As long as that UI meets your needs,
> your wiki will
> just be a folder containing wiki pages and upgrades will be very much
> easier. I think this is a good next step, with "Click to
> customize" and

Are you suggesting that a WikiFolder? becomes an actual object and that it contains the default pages as internal unseen objects? Or each page contains those templates?


> easier upgrades of customized methods to be addressed later.

Fair enough but not having the template visible makes it hard for people to customize at all right?


> I agree zwiki
> + ZPT should be explored but it's not on my list for 0.9.10.


> > What kind of rating? Like "is this page useful?". Is that moving
> away
> > from a framework into more of an application?
>
> Yes. It's certainly in the "optional features" category but I
> think most
> wikis have the problem that it's difficult to pick out the pages that
> matter from the ones that don't, and a simple "vote this page up/down"
> capability might be generally useful.

I certainly thought this should be the case for the fishbowl wiki's. A "hey I'd like to see this idea too" button. There are different ways to do this however.

There is a stright vote which I think has it's limitations because it's hard to compare items with lots of votes to those with little, and it's hard to get a sense of overall priorities. Somethings don't have priorities I guess like a "I found this page useful" vote.

Java bug parade type vote is pretty cool. Everyone gets 5 votes that they can move around to any page/bug at any time. This means you have to make a choice of what is the most important.

There is also Collaborative filtering type approaches. A user can give each page a rating and then group those that have similar ratings and use that clustering of rating to predict what else those users would like. This is good for subjective opinion type information

The point is that different types of information/applications might be more suited to different styles of voting, so I think tying a voting system into the wiki would be the wrong way to go. However, a thought I awhile back was that a voting system could exist in zope as a seperate component from what it was used on.

You would have a vote reposititory component stores and processes the votes based on AUTHENTICATED_USER. Different styles of voting could have different plugins to this component. A voting UI would be a dtml method embedded in each of the pages you wanted to vote on. The url of the page would be recorded with the vote. The vote repository would then have it's own UI to display the results of the vote, a list of the top 10, or a historgram, or your predicted favorite pages, whatever is most appropriate for the type of vote. Templates could be used to customize th e look of the results page.

This kind of archtecture could be used for anykind of page on any zope site, squishdot, whatever you want. Pity I never have time to work on these things :(


Simon Michael, 2002/07/04 07:57 GMT (via mail):
zwiki@zwiki.org (Jay, Dylan) writes:
> Are you suggesting that a WikiFolder? becomes an actual object and that
> it contains the default pages as internal unseen objects? Or each page
> contains those templates?

The latter. The page contains the method, which looks for an actual dtml method otherwise gives a default. We already do this with editform & backlinks.


> Fair enough but not having the template visible makes it hard for people to
> customize at all right?

That would depend. That line of thought led me to instantiate them all in the templates, so it was obvious how to customize. But then non-customizers have to work harder to upgrade.

Interesting comments on voting options, thanks.


DeanGoodmanson, 2002/07/04 14:37 GMT (via web):

>> This kind of archtecture could be used for anykind of page on any zope site, squishdot, whatever you want. Jay, Dylan

Although I'm still not on the first tier of the Zope learning curve...

Would you mind explaining a bit about how you could associate the Vote/Poll with a Squishdot site? The Zope sight makes sense as each page is it's own folder object, but each squishdot article is a record in the ZODB (or hidden object...???) . As Squishdot many users seem to want a CMF view ( http://zopezen.org/Members/zopista/1025367811 ) , could this be associated with a CMF object also?


JohnGreenaway, 2002/07/04 18:40 GMT (via web):
Seems to be a problem adding a text file as an attachment to pages. Tried attaching one to AddingSmiliesPatch (second link down on the page). The server seems to be interpreting it as a wiki page or something and doing some markup conversions on it...


JohnGreenaway, 2002/07/04 18:46 GMT (via web):
Hmm. Correction, the server's not converting it. Browser seems to be trying to render it as HTML rather than a normal .txt file. Is that down to the server marking the response as type text/html or the browser trying to be clever - as the txt file contains some html?


Jay, Dylan, 2002/07/04 23:16 GMT (via mail):

> > Fair enough but not having the template visible makes it hard for
> people to
> > customize at all right?
>
> That would depend. That line of thought led me to instantiate
> them all in
> the templates, so it was obvious how to customize. But then
> non-customizers have to work harder to upgrade.

What you need is something that is a bit of both. A dtmlmethod that is read off the disk rather than stored in the ZODB, but if edited it will copy the code into the ZODB part of it for editing.


Jay, Dylan, 2002/07/04 23:22 GMT (via mail):

> >> This kind of archtecture could be used for anykind of page on any
> zope site, squishdot, whatever you want. Jay, Dylan
>
> Although I'm still not on the first tier of the Zope learning curve...
>
> Would you mind explaining a bit about how you could associate
> the Vote/Poll
> with a Squishdot site? The Zope sight makes sense as each
> page is it's own
> folder object, but each squishdot article is a record in the
> ZODB (or hidden
> object...???) . As Squishdot many users seem to want a CMF view (
> http://zopezen.org/Members/zopista/1025367811 ) , could this
> be associated
> with a CMF object also?

Ok, I'm 100% up on squishdot and I can't get to zopezen.org at the moment. But let's say squishdot displays several votable topics on one page. Then the voteUI method would take a argument which is the unique id. You would at least have to have a page#topic url available.


Jay, Dylan, 2002/07/04 23:30 GMT (via mail):

> > >> This kind of archtecture could be used for anykind of page on
> any
> > zope site, squishdot, whatever you want. Jay, Dylan
> >
> > Although I'm still not on the first tier of the Zope learning
> curve...
> >
> > Would you mind explaining a bit about how you could associate
> > the Vote/Poll
> > with a Squishdot site? The Zope sight makes sense as each
> > page is it's own
> > folder object, but each squishdot article is a record in the
> > ZODB (or hidden
> > object...???) . As Squishdot many users seem to want a CMF view (
> > http://zopezen.org/Members/zopista/1025367811 ) , could this
> > be associated
> > with a CMF object also?
>
> Ok, I'm 100% up on squishdot and I can't get to zopezen.org

Opps, That was "NOT 100% up on squishdot"


> at the moment.
> But let's say squishdot displays several votable topics on
> one page. Then
> the voteUI method would take a argument which is the unique
> id. You would at
> least have to have a page#topic url available.
>
> --
> forwarded from http://zwiki.org/GeneralDiscussion
>


DeanGoodmanson, 2002/07/05 02:36 GMT (via web):

>> Then the voteUI method would take a argument which is the unique id.

Makes sense, thanks. Each article in Squish & CMF has a unique ID, which could be associated and tracked.

The Subjects/Topics in Squishdot leave much to be desired, as they are obscurely stored/retrieved through a dictionary object (I think)...currently erked at how hard it is (or how simple but obscure, as usually the case...) to be able to have a squish main page sub-view only showing items of a particular subject...o boy, what a tangent.

For those of you who've put up with my questions about an 0.8x version of ZWiki, Thank You. baby ZWiki born 7/2/02: http://nomad.freezope.org/main/


2002/07/05 10:57 GMT (via web):
I have been waiting for 0.9.10 for a while now, to unleash it on our intranet. I can't use 0.9.9 (because of the upload bug - "Documents, Images and Files"), and I feel reluctant to use a version patched by myself. It would be nice to have a bugfix release of 0.9.9 (trivially fixing this particular problem), if it is indeed the case that 0.9.10 will be less stable somehow.

BTW, will I be able to upgrade versions of ZWiki easily, or is there a possibility of data loss? How should the backups of data be made? FTP?


DeanGoodmanson, 2002/07/05 16:01 GMT (via web):

>> will I be able to upgrade versions of ZWiki easily

I asked similar questions recently...

ZwikiInstallation? InstallationFAQ? InstallationProblems UpgradeGuide?

Perhaps a ZwikiUpgrade? page is in order...


2002/07/06 23:14 GMT (via web):
Mmmh, the FrontPage is rather empty at this moment. PieterB


2002/07/08 04:47 GMT (via web):
I just started set up a site at freezope.org (Which, in IMHO, is a great service).

This site is for our writing group. At the moment, I am making use of Metapublisher to publish stories or poems, and Zwiki to discuss each piece of writing. If you are interested, you can find this at:

http://jtsitedesigns.freezope.org/planbwritersgroup/ourwork/

Here, each poem or story is a dtml document saved within a folder called "OurWork?" using the Metapublisher product. If you look at the bottom of the poem, "Check Out Line," you will notice a link to "discuss." Here, I am looking create a link (based on the title) from each poem or story to a new page within a Zwiki.

In the dtml document, view_html, I have placed the link: ">Discuss

Here are my concerns:

1) is there a way of eliminating any spaces/special characters in the title of the page to be created?

2) Is there a better way to create a unique title for each wiki page. For instance, is there a way to create a zwiki page based on a unique (numerical) identifier, and have the title of the page be the title of the poem or story.

Thanks in advance,

John T. jtsitedesigns@yahoo.com


John Tynan, 2002/07/08 05:05 GMT (via mail):
I just started set up a site at freezope.org (Which, in IMHO, is a great service).

This site is for our writing group. At the moment, I am making use of Metapublisher to publish stories or poems, and Zwiki to discuss each piece of writing. To see what I mean, see:

http://jtsitedesigns.freezope.org/planbwritersgroup/ourwork/

Here, each poem or story is a dtml document saved within a folder called "OurWork?" using the Metapublisher product. If, for instance, you look at the bottom of the poem, "Check Out Line," you will notice a link to "discuss." Here, I am looking create a link (based on the title) from each poem or story to a new page within a Zwiki.

In the dtml document, view_html, I have placed the link: ">Discuss

Here are my concerns:

1) is there a way of eliminating any spaces/special characters in the title of the page to be created?

2) Is there a better way to create a unique title for each wiki page. For instance, (and this might be more of a Metapublisher question) is there a way to create a zwiki page based on a unique (numerical) identifier, and have the title of the page be the title of the poem or story.

Thanks in advance,

John T. jtsitedesigns@yahoo.com


DeanGoodmanson -

GeneralDiscussion is broke, I hope due to < dtml calls in John T.'s examples (not modified)

GeneralDiscussion200207 is broken. :(


2002/07/09 10:35 GMT (via web):
I have a local Zwiki which I am unable to edit. It seems to be caused by the fact that my SMTP server is currently down, so subscribers to the site can't be notified.

Is it intended that edits fail if mail can't be sent?

Is there a way to determine version of Zwiki I'm running?

Thanks,

Kent


2002/07/09 11:14 GMT (via web):
About upgrading/backup - I couldn't really understand half of the stuff in UpgradeGuide? (I've never actually worked with Zope, just installed some products and read the docs). I would have hoped it was as simple as downloading all the pages via FTP (courtesy of Zope), then uploading post-upgrade (or for recovery). Is there a lot of information that gets lost in process of FTP download? One would assume that FTP download would be less feature-sensitive (more "flat") than a raw ZODB database (that some pages advice to take backup of).

And yes, a ZwikiUpgrade? would be in order, considering how critical it is to know that the precĂ­ous data is safe, without version lock-in. I especially want to be able to upgrade to a version of ZWiki that supports reStructuredText, when it comes available.

-- Ville


Pieter Biemond prive, 2002/07/09 11:25 GMT (via mail):

Is there a way to determine version of Zwiki I'm running?
see version.txt in the lib/python/Products/ZWiki dir or check the version in Zope ZMI -> Control Panel -> Products

PieterB


2002/07/10 09:17 GMT (via web):
Daydreaming...

Wouldn't it be nice if there would be a possibility to directly edit the comment just added. So when you press the "Add a comment" button you would see a "Thank you for adding your comment"-page with the STX rendered and have the possibility to:

I think it would be great if you could edit (your own) comment as well, without editting the whole page.

-- PieterB


DeanGoodmanson, 2002/07/10 14:11 GMT (via web):
Comment Editing...

Could this be accomplished by a Preview screen which included the rendered page and text box with the original text?


2002/07/10 15:28 GMT (via web):
I don't really like Preview-options, because most of the times I think I can do it right the first time ;)

Unfortuately sometimes I need to correct myself...
PieterB


2002/07/11 00:10 GMT (via web):

(from TonyRossini) I'm a bit confused about installing a ZwikiIssueTracker. Where is the lastEditTime (and/or last_edit_time) defined? It's not a property in my wiki, which suggests that I've got old DTML or *.py thing somewhere?


DeanGoodmanson, 2002/07/11 21:23 GMT (via web):
Simon:

I'm interested in helping spot-clean graffiti on this site.

Could you articulate which level of Graffiti you'd like cleaned by passerby's, regulars, and official maintainers?

I'm currently only comfortable fixing blatent page crashes and vulgarities, and the usual comment rubish such as "dafsa klasda flask;"


Jay, Dylan, 2002/07/11 23:20 GMT (via mail):
I've been thinking of that thread awhile back about alternative structured text implementations.

The more I think about it the more I think that the systems of headings someone pointed out for another wiki implementation is really good. Indenting for headings really piss me off now. When I change heading levels or reformat vanilla text it's the biggest change I have to make.

The idea was this. Each heading is underlined such as

Heading 1 ---------

something

Heading 2 =========

paragraph

Heading 2 =========

paragraph

Heading 3 ~~~~~~~~~

A different symbol just means different level and the level is determined by the order of introduction in the document. ---- might mean level 1 or if I add

Heading 0 #########

above it then it will automatically become level 2 etc.

This doesn't seem incompatible to existing stx rules so how hard do you think it would it be to implement on top of the current implementation?


Jos Yule, 2002/07/12 01:45 GMT (via mail):
The alt stx we were talking about is called reStructuredText . Its got some other goodies too - i was going to look into creating a renderer for zwiki for this, but, as per usual, got hung up on other project, etc etc...

I would be very happy to be rid of the indention/heading thing. I'm not sure how easy it would be to "remove" it tho - its all kept together via recursive calls in stx renderer - too much for my brain to follow right now anyway! It would also break compatibility with Zope's stx, since that is the one that zwiki uses (i think).

Do we want to set a new stx "standard" for zwiki? I'm all up for the discussion about that, and would push for implementing some of rSTX's format... or just getting rid of the indention! (and how lists are done, and, and, and!!! :)

JosYule


Jay, Dylan, 2002/07/12 01:50 GMT (via mail):

> Do we want to set a new stx "standard" for zwiki? I'm all up for the
> discussion about that, and would push for implementing some of rSTX's
> format... or just getting rid of the indention! (and how

I think the rSTX heading stuff can be implemented on top of the current zope stx support, as a kind of alternative to using indenting. Removing indenting seems to be both too hard and not nice from a backwards compatibility perspective.


Simon Michael, 2002/07/12 07:15 GMT (via mail):
zwiki@zwiki.org (DeanGoodmanson) writes:
> I'm interested in helping spot-clean graffiti on this site.
>
> Could you articulate which level of Graffiti you'd like cleaned by
> passerby's, regulars, and official maintainers?

Thanks Dean. I'd be glad to see any cleanups and edits that are intended to improve our site, please go ahead.

I'm travelling at present and for the next few days - will respond to recent posts when I can. Anyone else should feel free to jump in sooner.

Regards, all - Simon


2002/07/12 09:42 GMT (via web):
Why would you like to reinvent a new STX, when reStructuredText is already available?


DeanGoodmanson, 2002/07/12 14:02 GMT (via web):
Why re-invent STX? Because it's very annoying from a default browser text entry box... Annoying Like MS WORD auto-formatting, tab based formatting. We discussed it a couple months ago: GeneralDiscussion200205 , GeneralDiscussion200204


Dylan Jay, 2002/07/14 04:15 GMT (via mail):

> Why would you like to reinvent a new STX, when reStructuredText is already
> available?

Good point. For some reason I had it in my mind that reSTX was not a python implementation. Simon, how hard would it be to make yet another rendering option that uses reSTX?

Adding a new rendering option gives people the option of not using it, however the combinations are getting a bit unmanageable. Perhaps its time for this mechanism to be generalized? Perhaps rendering should be a pipe with a set of components? eg STX->DTML->HTML->WikiLinks?? Then people could mix and match the kind of rendering they want? or create new renders (I've wanted one that will turn all uppercase words like three letter acronyms into wiki links before). Certain rules might have to be used however so one kind of rendering only happens after another kind.

The other annoying thing about rendering options is when you want to globally change them. There is no easy way to change a whole wiki site from one form of rendering to another.One way would be to make a tool that sets the option on every wikipage in a folder. My preference however would be for a defaulting system where the folder contains the global default method of rendering and each page is set to "use default" unless explicitly changed.


DeanGoodmanson, 2002/07/18 20:25 GMT (via web):
Would someone mind responding to John T.'s question? : http://www.zwiki.org/GeneralDiscussion#JohnT

I directed him here from the freezope list as I dont know the best method for this one.


Jay, Dylan, 2002/07/18 22:20 GMT (via mail):

> -----Original Message-----
> From: zwiki@zwiki.org
> Sent: Friday, 19 July 2002 6:25 AM
> To: @zwiki.org
> Subject: zwiki.org GeneralDiscussion
>
>
> Would someone mind responding to John T.'s question? :
> http://www.zwiki.org/GeneralDiscussion#JohnT
>
> I directed him here from the freezope list as I dont know the
> best method for
> this one.

Yes the latest zwiki version (prob. not the release one) handles this. You can create a page (probably using []) with any chars in it. It will remove all the nasty bits and turn it into a wiki name. However when it's shown or when linking, you can use the long name (or in fact several different long names). This may or may not solve the uniqueness issues. Alternatively you can create pages with numbers and set the title to the long name. However then you would have to link using the numeric id rather than the title which is not what you want I'm guessing


JohnGreenaway, 2002/07/19 09:05 GMT (via web):
RE Unique page ids - The code on ZwikiIssueTracker does this (see http://www.zwiki.org/ZwikiTracker/view_source).

The useful bit of code is:

        <dtml-try>
        <dtml-let
          lastid="Catalog(page_type='issuedtml',sort_on='id')[-1].id"
          lastnumber="_.int(lastid[-4:])"
          newnumber="lastnumber+1"
          newid="'IssueNo'+_.string.zfill(newnumber,4)"
        >
        <dtml-call "REQUEST.set('newid',newid)">
        </dtml-let>
        <dtml-except>
        <dtml-call "REQUEST.set('newid','IssueNo0001ATestIssue')">
        </dtml-try>

It assumes you've got a Catalog in you're wiki and find the highest number page with a cetain prefix, IssueNo? in this case, and increments by one to get the new unique page id.


John Tynan, 2002/07/19 14:35 GMT (via mail):
John and Jay,

Thank you very much for the replies. I'll take some time to work on these issues and let you know how it turns out.

John T.

--- JohnGreenaway <zwiki@zwiki.org> wrote:
> RE Unique page ids - The code on ZWikiTacker? does
> this (see
> http://www.zwiki.org/ZwikiTracker/view_source).
>
> The useful bit of code is::

__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes http://autos.yahoo.com


DeanGoodmanson, 2002/07/22 16:02 GMT (via web):
Japan ZWiki site : http://wiki.zope.jp/FrontPage


Jay, Dylan, 2002/07/22 23:35 GMT (via mail):

> Japan ZWiki site : http://wiki.zope.jp/FrontPage

It's a bummer that the extended chars can't be wikilinks. Have you tried using the latest code and puting [] round the japanese wiki names?


2002/07/26 05:08 GMT (via web):
after many hours with zope and zwiki, I'm starting to be productive. I'm no slouch, but there definitely is a steep learning curve for customizing and fully taking advantage of zwiki if you're not a zope guru.

Running 0.9.9, and perusing this site, I still cannot get a fully functional ZwikiIssueTracker working, nor can I figure out how to do ImageUpload?
seems that many people here are running the CVS code, not the latest release. My zwiki intranet site is already too produciton for me to risk mucking it up, but at the same time, I echo the sentiment of wanting it to be easier to upgrade zwiki on the fly and not worry about what pages will need to be re-copied.

My vote is to enable file and image uploads as part of a default install, and why not include a functional ZwikiIssueTracker as an importable object.

I want more template sites. I might even contribute a skeleton of mine - would that be helpful to included in the release?

Also, How do I toggle the enable heading bit for comments? Can it be changed on a per-page basis?

With regards to formatting, I would very much like to have a left navigation column that is about 60 pixels wide down the left side of the page. I tried to edit the html to include this, but got caught in the massive nested tables in the header and footer. It would be great if the html code included a section that was easily and clearly marked as a left sidebar that could default to a width of zero, but be edited to be an arbitrary width, and allow me to put arbitrary links, icons, junk, or other info on the left side as a sort of permanent navigation bar.

and lastly, we need a guide that explains how to install apache, then zope, then zwiki, then configure apache to redirect a given path to the zope root (so there's no :8080), then configure zope to redirect it's homepage to a given zwiki. After many months, I'm stilly experimenting with the best combination of settings to achieve the desired effect of having apache handle my root web, and having a subdir path that redirects to zope root (which I want to redirect to my zwiki by default).


2002/07/26 05:19 GMT (via web):
I would like to have a SquishDot? site that will link to my zwiki site whenever I use a wiki link, and I would also like it to be able to use the full zwiki structured text in all posts, comments, etc.

I found a link on the SquishDot? site that relates to this ( http://www.squishdot.org/942865736/index_html ), but it doesn't look like it went anywhere. Does anyone have any ideas or solutions along these lines?


2002/07/26 08:05 GMT (via web):
As for Upload - it's a (serious) bug in 0.9.9. It has to do with the permission "Add Documents, images and files" versus "add documents, files and images". There is the wrong version of the permission name in one of the dtml files on 0.9.9. Edit the dtml file, and it might start working properly.

[vvai@sfiu8x03 zwikidotorg]$ grep -i documents *
editform.dtml:            AUTHENTICATED_USER.has_permission(Add Documents, Files, and Images,this().uploads)) or
editform.dtml:            AUTHENTICATED_USER.has_permission(Add Documents, Files, and Images,this())))">
[vvai@sfiu8x03 zwikidotorg]$ pwd
/usr/local/dc/Zope2.5.1/lib/python/Products/ZWiki/templates/zwikidotorg

Those should be "Add Documents, Images and Files", I think.

But I'm too lazy to check out right now ;-). Please do tell us if things start working after the fix!

-- Ville


DeanGoodmanson, 2002/07/26 13:05 GMT (via web):
Re: Integrating ZWiki with SquishDot?

Commentary: I have also gotten very frustrated at Squishdots STX after getting used to ZWiki.

I don't think that development went anywhere...Squishdot seems to be a rather lethargic project.

Have you visited http://www.zopezen.org ? That code is also now available.

Questions: How integrated do you want to get ? How much control over your squishdot server do you have? You'll probably have to modify the product to make these changes- checkout how the stripogram code is used within squishdot...

Converting Squishdot to turn every article/posting/reply/comment into a ZWiki page will be quite a feat...I have yet to grok bobobase so can't offer a lot of advise there.

The necesity for double spacing a ZWiki page may not translate to a very pretty Squishdot site..or perhaps it will help. I know that the appending of carriage returns on articles by Squishdot (and modififying the input text rather than re-rendering it- watch out with those & 's!) is also a consistent annoyance....planning to chuck strip-o-gram & stx on my own intranet squishdot site.

< /rant>

Any suggestions for a good bobobase ZOPE reference? I've seen a few good Python/standalone references..but figure I might have to get a dead-tree version for understanding in the context of Zope.

Re: with heading checkbox control...currently I know this is togged by the word Discussion at theend of a page, see the page footer dtml document. You could modify it for other keywords, or a tag/flag property in your zwiki page? Not sure of the processing order...or good implementation, for that matter. (Via a page property sounds like something that would require the ZMI..)


2002/07/26 16:54 GMT (via web):
hardlinks and symlinks for zwiki pages? : I'd like to be able to easily make multiple pages/nodes in my zwiki be simliar to hardlinks, where FooBar? and FooBars? and FooBarBaz? actually are the same page. Currently, I just end up making all permutations, consolidating info in one page, and making the other pages reference the page with info on it. Would this be feasable or possible to include in the reparent section? Something like link node?


2002/07/26 17:35 GMT (via web):
http://zwiki.org/TextFormattingRules has some small errors, such as the asterisks being not visible in the "emphasis" sentence. Similar errors are all over StructuredTextRules?.

These seem to be fixed in http://www.zope.org/Members/jim/StructuredTextWiki/StructuredTextRules


David Hart, 2002/07/29 04:26 GMT (via mail):
The external edit link on http://zwiki.org is great!

I downloaded the latest tgz, but standard_wiki_footer does not contain the necessary code. Could you send me the DTML snippet to make this work?

Also, a print this page link that uses a user-defined style-sheet and displays only the document content would be a great standard feature. A simple dtml print method is attached and works with:

 <a href="/&dtml-id;/print">Print Version</a>

------------------------------------------------------------------------:

 <html>
 <head>

 <style><!--

 body        { }
 p           {margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0; }
 li          { }
 td          { }
 a           {text-decoration: underline;}
 a:hover     {text-decoration: underline; background-color: #FFcccc; }

 ol          { list-style-type: decimal }  
 ol ol       { list-style-type: decimal }          /* 1 2 3 4 5 etc. */
 ol ol ol    { list-style-type: lower-roman }      /* i ii iii iv v etc. */
 ol ol ol ol { list-style-type: lower-alpha }      /* 1 2 3 4 5 etc. */

 .proposed   {color: #FF0000; }
 .strike     {text-decoration:line-through; }
 .propstrike {text-decoration:line-through; color: #FF0000; }

 //--></style>

 <title><dtml-var title></title>
 <meta NAME="ROBOTS" CONTENT="INDEX,NOFOLLOW">
 </head>

 <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF">

 <dtml-var document_src fmt=structured-text>

... --2003/04/27 12:45 GMT
hi i,am using zope with MetaPublisher?. How can i sort my entries (ABC)..?! (for example a list of names) please mail me: boeckle_martin@hotmail.com