Archived GeneralDiscussion :

DeanGoodmanson, 2003/02/01 01:15 GMT (via web):
-0-15-0rc1 upgrade confusion

1. Having trouble with mail_out...not getting anything in my inbox, but mucked with the from format (SMNT rules blocking?), so rolling back to original file. After rolling back still not getting email from comment box. Trying edits: Still no luck. ...???

  1. I was expecting the new standard_wiki_footer to match that on ZWiki. (with the possible exception of subject placement.)

SimonMichael, 2003/02/01 14:46 GMT (via web):
0-15-0rc1 upgrade confusion

NB there's a problem with lists in comments: put a blank line before starting a comment with a list item.

Still got a valid mail_from ? Mailout is working here.

No, the subject field is still a test feature. I'm not yet reconciled to the added clutter. And the (un)subscribe is not yet fast enough.

DeanGoodmanson, 2003/02/01 15:51 GMT (via web):
0-15-0rc1 upgrade confusion

the mail_from property is valid. I believe the code in the mail.py was also valid. (Simply change .py file then restart, right?) The mail routing note is that the address must be an internal address. Standard debug logging methods work for gathering more flow data here?

Also, I'm not sure [[[[#407 Some SubWiki pages can't be renamed] Some SubWiki pages can't be renamed] Some SubWiki pages can't be renamed] Some SubWiki pages can't be renamed] fix made the CVS default standard_wiki_footer file.

Would you post the current footer code, or a the st..footer/viewsource URL. (I couldn't figure out that dtml method name last night..) I'd like to experiment with it. Does it require other code changes, or just footer?

Dare I cloud the issue further? What did you think of my post awhile back for a new mailout_policy which sent comments and diff whenever a subject/log was entered? (Essentially a subject/log would serve as a "major change" flag.)

SimonMichael, 2003/02/01 16:00 GMT (via web):
bug/patch reviewing post from python-dev

This has some good info, should be linked somewhere. http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2002-November/029831.html

FlorianKonnertz, 2003/02/01 16:30 GMT (via web):
viewsource

I forgot about this. Did you find out how it is used, Dean? Ie. http://openspirit.homelinux.net/noowiki/standard_wiki_header/viewsource doesn't work. Could you add this to the existing chapter in DTMLCookbook please.

Simon Michael, 2003/02/01 16:43 GMT (via mail):
0-15-0rc1 upgrade confusion


> the mail_from property is valid. I believe the code in the mail.py was
> also valid. (Simply change .py file then restart, right?) The mail

You're hacking on Mail.py ? That could be a factor. :) Yes change the .py file and restart zope. Or to save time you can refresh the product, this will work say 90% of the time (auto-refresh, 60%) but when it doesn't it can confuse the hell out of you.


> routing note is that the address must be an internal address.
> Standard debug logging methods work for gathering more flow data here?

Yup, or set up debugging. Make it print out the message it's sending to mailhost.


> Also, I'm not sure [[[[#407 Some SubWiki pages can't be renamed] Some SubWiki pages can't be renamed] Some SubWiki pages can't be renamed] Some SubWiki pages can't be renamed] fix made the CVS default
> standard_wiki_footer file.

I haven't seen this issue. It's closed, do you think it requires a code change ? I can't tell from a quick scan.


> Would you post the current footer code, or a the st..footer/viewsource
> URL. (I couldn't figure out that dtml method name last night..) I'd like
> to experiment with it. Does it require other code changes, or just
> footer?

This site's page layout comes from the wikipage page template right now. When this does not exist, it means we're using the built-in default.

Unfortunately view_source doesn't work on page templates, so use http://zwiki.org/wikipage/source.html (and then view the page source if you're in a browser). If someone wants to update view_source start at http://zwiki.org/view_source/view_source .


> Dare I cloud the issue further? What did you think of my post awhile
> back for a new mailout_policy which sent comments and diff whenever a
> subject/log was entered? (Essentially a subject/log would serve as a
> "major change" flag.)

I'm thinking similar thoughts. I like the elegance, but feel it might be too restrictive. You wouldn't be able to mail out without a comment subject, which might be tiresome on an issue page which already has a pretty specific page name. Would you control web comment headings the same way ?

SimonMichael, 2003/02/01 17:15 GMT (via web):
subject, mailout ideas

There's a few different ideas here:

Most of these would require help text explaining the effect of the subject field.

subject, mailout ideas --SimonMichael, 2003/02/01 17:44 GMT
Pardon the distraction, I want to see how a one heading would look.

subject, mailout ideas --SimonMichael, 2003/02/01 17:44 GMT
(one-line)

subject, mailout ideas --2003/02/01 18:49 GMT
In fact, as the out-of-box-default that helps people Get Stuff Done, I now lean towards always mailout, always add heading. Don't do anything special based on subject, and no heading checkbox (let sites enable that if they want it). That's the policy in effect here right now.

These discussions don't affect the 0.15 release, it's ready to go I believe.

Zwiki 0.15 released --Simon Michael, 2003/02/01 19:33 GMT
Summary

Minor bugfixes and some changes to wikimail behaviour.

Upgrade notes

If you're doing mailin, don't forget to re-save your external method after installing this release.

Changes

Mail

Skins and content

General

http://zwiki.org/releases/ZWiki-0.15.0.tgz http://zope.org/Members/simon/ZWiki/ZWiki-0.15.0.tgz

More information: http://zwiki.org/KnownIssues , http://zwiki.org .

Cheers, -Simon

subject --FlorianKonnertz, 2003/02/02 10:11 GMT
Oh! Ah! Yes! I like the one-line heading: +1

[[[[#407 Some SubWiki pages can't be renamed] Some SubWiki pages can't be renamed] Some SubWiki pages can't be renamed] Some SubWiki pages can't be renamed] --DeanGoodmanson, 2003/02/03 03:08 GMT
The skins/default/standard_wiki_footer.dtml page management panel code input name is "newid" not "pagename".

This closes the issue, but the file wasn't updated. I'm not sure how the issue got closed. This only seems to affect SubWiki's.

bug/patch reviewing post from python-dev --DeanGoodmanson, 2003/02/03 05:52 GMT
Is this also your expection for ZWiki development?

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2002-November/029831.html

I'm having a bit of trouble figuring out how we should take this.

I appreciate the link, and realize it most likely a "check this out" post, but would like to re-open the topic if there is other relevance you wanted to convey.

ArnoPucher, 2003/02/03 09:08 GMT
Is there a way to customize a ZWiki Page using CSS ?

I am using Version 0-14-0 and in the customization Wikis there is always a "standard_wiki_header" which I never got with my installed version.

Using CSS --DeanGoodmanson, 2003/02/03 15:02 GMT
Arno - You'll need to create a dtml method in your zwiki folder called "standard_zwiki_header", start with the contents of the similarly named file in the zwiki product files (I think it's in /skins/default ). That method is will override the default header, and you can place your CSS there.

See also: CustomizationFAQ?

If you come up with a nifty style-sheet, pleaes show it off and post it! :-)

wiki weblogs --DeanGoodmanson, 2003/02/03 15:09 GMT
"Wikis and weblogs offer good ways of recording what is happening and why. For long lived projects or projects with staff turnover having this record is important to continuity. Both tools would benefit from being combined." - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scrumdevelopment/message/869

FloK and I have got a rough updated form of BillSeitz wiki weblog implemented, along with at least one other variation. There are a number of issues remainging, but...

What are the critical features you see for a wiki weblog? (I'll get a feature list up soon, but would like to hear what's off the top of your head..)

What of these features would render the validation of a "Weblog" page type? This would solve a number of current warts...

bug/patch reviewing post from python-dev --SimonMichael, 2003/02/03 18:16 GMT
Dean - I meant "check this out" and "source of ideas if we ever want to strengthen our bug handling process".

mailout upgrade confusion --DeanGoodmanson, 2003/02/03 18:37 GMT
mail-outs are working now, sorry for the alarm.

I think I was expecting all comments to be mailed out. More later.

zwiki->static html?2003/02/03 19:21 GMT
I have a feeling my answer is already floating around here somewhere but... here's goes... is there a quick&dirty way to basically export a static (i.e., html) version of a zwiki. In other words, I'd like to essentially "publish" an html version of a zwiki to a standard apache web root.

zwiki->static html? --SimonMichael, 2003/02/03 19:37 GMT
Basically, fiddle around with wget or curl's spidering options until you get what you want. In the past I had them grab all links one-deep from RecentChanges? or contents.

#zwiki ! --SimonMichael, 2003/02/03 19:45 GMT
I think it's time we had a #zwiki on irc.freenode.org. I had a good experience with #mailman this morning - I see small channels can have their place. I don't expect to be much help there at least until I get linux 2.5 talking to my sound card (so I can hear comments) but feel free to hang out!

footer --DeanGoodmanson, 2003/02/03 21:07 GMT
Simon: Would you mind posting your current footer and relevant change notes to to set a footer like it is now at ZWiki?

footer: I'd like your ZPT version, currently using DTML, but the dates aren't showing up and I'd like to give this a shot at fixing it.

Single line heading : I haven't looked yet to see hwere this is handled, so simply asking for a pointer to it.

#zwiki ! --Florian Konnertz, 2003/02/04 07:22 GMT
SimonMichael wrote:
> #zwiki ! --SimonMichael, 2003/02/03 19:45 GMT

> I think it's time we had a #zwiki on irc.freenode.org. Hey, good idea! - I tried to connect without success and checked http://freenode.org telling me it's irc.freenode.net - I'm online now for some hours. seeya!?

Permissions again --2003/02/04 10:45 GMT
I thought I saw (on a previous stroll through this wiki) someone suggest answering a permissions question using the VisiblePermissions? product ... or something like that. But I can't find it now. Is there such a product that will log (or something) permissions queries? If so it would be great for answering several of my questions.

Permissions again --Simon Michael, 2003/02/04 17:22 GMT
VerboseSecurity?. A very useful product.

footer --Simon Michael, 2003/02/04 18:26 GMT
zwiki@zwiki.org (DeanGoodmanson) writes:
> Simon: Would you mind posting your current footer and relevant change
> notes to to set a footer like it is now at ZWiki?

Dean - I wrote about wikipage here a couple of days ago, search for "source.html".

Note the wikipage page template is the most up to date; the standard_wiki_header and standard_wiki_footer dtml methods and the zwiki_orig CMF skin may lag a bit unless someone updates them. This duplication isn't ideal.


> Single line heading : I haven't looked yet to see hwere this is handled,
> so simply asking for a pointer to it.

It's in comment(). I haven't checked it in yet, so you can find it in /zwikidir . I see I need to update the stripping of comment heading from mailouts also.

#zwiki ! --Simon Michael, 2003/02/04 18:27 GMT
Right, #zwiki is on irc.freenode.net, thanks for the correction. I kicked it off yesterday and saw some zwiki chat on #zope this morning, whatever works.

Permissions again (finally) --2003/02/04 21:31 GMT
Oh, YESSS!!! Thanks. I couldn't find it originally because it's not in the zope products list, had to do a search, and therefore had to know the exact name. Thanks.

errors on the site --FlorianKonnertz, 2003/02/05 01:24 GMT
Hi Simon, FYI: I get errors in http://zwiki.org/zwikidir/skins/default

errors on this site --DeanGoodmanson, 2003/02/05 02:57 GMT
http://zwiki.org/zwikidir/skins/default/standard_wiki_footer.dtml/view_source worked for me.

extended FilterIssues --FlorianKonnertz, 2003/02/05 03:47 GMT
I extended FilterIssues: The existing issue matrix of the current version is only one of three possible, the other two tables can also be sometimes useful. - See NooWiki:FilterIssues

Overriding authenticated ID --DeanGoodmanson, 2003/02/05 07:47 GMT
I tried adding the following to my comment form intending to get a username that was the valuse of zwiki_username. :

 <dtml-if "REQUEST.get('zwiki_username','')">
  <INPUT type="hidden" name="username" value="&dtml-zwiki_username;">
 </dtml-if>

No such luck. :-( Any thoughts?

mailout confusion --DeanGoodmanson, 2003/02/05 07:53 GMT
Would you believe that I get mail from a SubWiki but not from the root wiki?

I like the subject line in the mailout...wish there was an extra line between that subject line and the body, but not at the expense of an extra line in the page.

extended FilterIssues --FlorianKonnertz, 2003/02/05 07:55 GMT
...and here's the code: NooWiki:CurrentCodeOfNooWikiSystemPages

to Dean --FlorianKonnertz, 2003/02/05 08:38 GMT
Thanks Dean for the hints view_source and missing link to FilterIssues source!

mailout confusion, comment time stamp --DeanGoodmanson, 2003/02/05 15:41 GMT

>> Would you believe that I get mail from a SubWiki but not from the root wiki?

Once again, what I saw yesterday isn't happening today. :-/

I'm still having trouble with the ZopeTime? showing up on the page when adding a comment. I think that's an OSX issue, but would like to hear if anyone has had problems with it.

mailout confusion --Simon Michael, 2003/02/05 19:44 GMT
zwiki@zwiki.org (DeanGoodmanson) writes:
> I like the subject line in the mailout...wish there was an extra line

Do you ? Actually it only appears there because of a bug. It just duplicates the information in the message headers.

repost --SimonMichael, 2003/02/05 19:54 GMT
Hi Ronaldo, welcome. Reposting your comment here, sorry my portuguese is not good.:

 Sou do Brasil, beleza! Mais quero saber como poderei editar mais uma subpage para que os usuários 
 acessem, neste caso é bom que nos comuniquemos para melhor aproveitamento e divulgação do software, já
 que ele é ótimo, poderoso e free.

 obrigado,

 ronaldo@brfree.com.br

subject field in body --DeanGoodmanson, 2003/02/05 22:07 GMT
Do I really like it?

I liked that I could see who sentwrote it. It also made up some of my other outlook annoyances, which I hope to correct in a more appropriate manner.

I don't think it should stay as it's date field is obscure from a client side due to formatting noise and "Recieved" date upon view is what is applicable rather than the GMT time.

OpenQuestion?: Per WikiMailDiscussion it appears that Lotus Notes also gets persnickity with mailout. :-/ (Substantial subscriber list causes a carriage return in the copy field.)

RFC and Meta-RFC ;-) --DeanGoodmanson, 2003/02/06 04:37 GMT
I've created an RFC page. The RFC page itself is because I wasn't sure where to put my current RFC documents, and may be re-organized at any time. If you have RFC issues (A search produced a few results, mostly in GeneralDiscussion, which I did not sift through.) please add them!

New ones: SubPage? PageOutlines , note: These are based on conversations with another ZWiki user not just personal whim! ;-) I have spent a bit of time researching these at MeatBall and WikiWiki but not comprehensively. They are certainly not original concepts. Reference links greatly appreciated.

Simon: How should we discuss these? I can percolate the relevant info those pages from GeneralDiscussion for now.

All feedback is greatly appreciated and expedites implementation.

RFC and Meta-RFC ;-) --FlorianKonnertz, 2003/02/06 08:25 GMT
Hi Dean, hi all; the approach to have a more formalized ZwikiWishList? is good IMO. - I'm not sure if i already got the idea of RFC and PageOutlining?... Do you intend the RFC page to be used before adding an itme to the tracker, or afterwards? My first thought was, why not finally do a new generation IssueTracker? Of course this is also an issue of ZwikiAndProjectManagement. (See my comment there, too.)

ArnoPucher,2003/02/06 08:29 GMT
referring to "Using CSS --DeanGoodmanson, 2003/02/03 15:02 GMT":

I tried to add the mentioned standard_zwiki_header into my zwiki folder (the place my wikiweb resides). Unfortunately nothing happened ...

Regardless what changes I made, none of changes in the standard_zwiki_header changed anything in the resulting code of the ZWiki Page

and now to something complete different:

Is there a way to set default options to newly created ZWiki Pages without altering the code ?

f.i. change the default render method, set the "with heading" check box etc.

standard_wiki_* changes --DeanGoodmanson, 2003/02/06 15:15 GMT
I mist-stated. standard_wiki_header / footer, not standard_zwiki.. My apologies. :-/

Default options: "with heading" can be set to always on by (overriding and) modifying standard_wiki_footer .. details upon request, there also in this wiki somewhere.

edit method with username --DeanGoodmanson, 2003/02/06 17:06 GMT
On pages like the FAQ which allow a dtml edit() call, the editors username is lost.

I was hoping to pass in zwiki_username (with valid checking, of couse), but don't see it as an option.

Is this functionality possible?

Separating the "comments" section --ArnoPucher, 2003/02/07 06:13 GMT
Is there a way to separate the comments from the "document"?

standard_wiki_header is BEFORE the document, standard_wiki_footer is AFTER the document (including possible comments). So is there a customization layer to add DTML/HTML Code between the document and the comments added by using the comments box?

Or is a comment just added to the document, forming a new "greater" document ?

The meaning would be a clear separate between a documentation the part I called "document" before and comments regarding the above documenation.

Separating the "comments" section --DeanGoodmanson, 2003/02/07 07:40 GMT
Here's my interpretation (based on WikiPedia thoughts..)

Every page consists of a "Document" and a "Document Discussion" page. Comments are appended to the Document Discussion page.

I'd suggest checking out the FAQ page for DTML code for creating and editing another page. (Not sure if creating is in there.. check the bottom of IssueTracker for that code.) if you want to build one.

Note: The edits done during that code will be signed "anonymous" and require authentication(?) or anonymous edits in order to work.

Further babble:

This is not how it works, but an interesting thought. I think I saw a suggestion on WikiWiki to put a double <hr> between the document and comments.

Purist DocumentMode? discourage discussion threads on a document, asking readings to leave the discussion for a *Discussion page. You can support that by a note at the end of your document, and by specifically turnnig off the Allow Comments security preference on those pages.

When viewing the document, would you want the comments section displayed?

upgrading NooWiki --FlorianKonnertz, 2003/02/07 10:26 GMT
I get my own server for NooWiki these days! :-) So i can finally upgrade Zope(current is 2.5.0) and ZWiki(still using 0.13.1) and what's the most important: I can do changes to the filesystem product code, much better than only using ExternalMethods?!
Question: Would you recommend Zope 2.6.1b or stay with 2.6.0 (running fine for me locally) - are there changes affecting ZWiki? - I guess no, right?

PieterB, 2003/02/07 14:43 GMT
I would recommend Zope 2.6.1b2 because of the DateTime?-issue and because of other KnownIssues with Zope 2.6.0. Also read the zope-dev thread at http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-dev/2003-January/018574.html, and please mention if you have succes in using Zwiki with Zope 2.6.1b2.

upgrading NooWiki --SimonMichael, 2003/02/07 14:57 GMT
Florian - cool. If it were me I would find something else to do for a day or two until (hopefully) 2.6.1 is released.

Florian Konnertz, 2003/02/07 15:01 GMT
PieterB wrote:
> I would recommend Zope 2.6.1b2 because of the DateTime?-issue and because of
> other KnownIssues with Zope 2.6.0. Also read the zope-dev thread at
> http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-dev/2003-January/018574.html, and please
> mention if you have succes in using Zwiki with Zope 2.6.1b2.

Hi Pieter, thanks for the hint! :-) Of course i'll report every detail of my new server configuration. - BTW, did you check out my RFC on ZwikiGardeningPolicy? ?

CSS Friday question --John Greenaway, 2003/02/07 15:06 GMT
Copying Dean's original question in full as doesn't seem to have shown up on the page


> Is it possible to, with CSS, apply different formatting to
> relative vs. non-relative anchor/hyper links?
>
> This would take care of my local-wiki's vs. external links
> confusion. John once mentioned he had something setup to keep
> from browsing beyond the intranet, but I think that was a
> network configuration, not a Wiki enforced feature. I simply
> need a technical visual cue to external links, nad would
> rather not add another method to run a pages output through.

In _replaceWikilink in zwikipage.py

Replace the line (it's got a comment above saying "ordinary url"):

        return '<a href="%s">%s</a>' % (m, m)

with:

        return '<a href="%s" class="external">%s</a>' % (m, m)

Then in your CSS you can define, say,:

        a.external {background-color:blue} (or whatever text effects you
want...)
        or
        a.external {padding-left:20px;background: url(your_image.gif)
left no-repeat;} 
        (to put an marker image next to them)

It might be an idea to add class attributes to any HTML generated by zwiki (all ties in with the ValidHTML drive) so that people can change the look of elements without having to alter the Python source code.

CSS question --DeanGoodmanson, 2003/02/07 15:14 GMT
Thanks, John!

Class naming seems like a great effort for ZWiki. I hope it can be a first iteration towards ValidHTML. I must say the XHTML issues (beyond CSS) seem a bit overwhelming.

CSS Friday question --SimonMichael, 2003/02/07 15:20 GMT
Class attributes sounds like a good idea. How can we break it into chunks ? (wiki links.. header & footer elements.. body text..) Patches, anyone ?

RFC, ZwikiGardeningPolicy? --DeanGoodmanson, 2003/02/07 15:38 GMT

>> Do you intend the RFC page to be used before adding an itme to the tracker, or afterwards?

I think proposals are a bit different than feature wishlists, although a wishlist bug issue be the inspiration for a proposal, but a proposal doesn't necesarily need a wishlist issue It's all a blur. Reality: The most effective proposal,request,etc. are delivered with working prototype code.

This is even more blurry when it comes to administration policies. Agreed, a project management list management tool may make this all easier. If the RFC page murky's up the water too much, we should delete it or gloriously refactor it. (A glorious refactor would probably only be possible if done with Simon's decision momentum.)

I needed a place to plop a couple discussion details. I don't want to be the maintainer of the RFC's.

RFC, ZwikiGardeningPolicy? --SimonMichael, 2003/02/07 16:21 GMT
All - I haven't had time to read these yet, they are probably good ideas. I just wanted to add: let's all be be careful with adding pages and procedures, lest we bury ourselves in cobwebs. I sense duplication. We need to KISS.

RFC, ZwikiGardeningPolicy? --SimonMichael, 2003/02/07 16:38 GMT
Non-english speakers: that's Keep It Simple, Stupid. :)

Reparenting under CMF --JCLawrence, 2003/02/07 21:18 GMT
Any motions being made to add reparenting (and parent tree display) support under CMF?

CSS: relative vs. absolute links --laura trippi, 2003/02/08 07:11 GMT
once more, with feeling. . . (this is my 3rd attempt to post this reply to the list):

-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: GeneralDiscussion CSS: relative vs. absolute links Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 16:10:08 -0800 From: laura trippi <latrippi@netvironments.org> To: zwiki@zwiki.org References: <E18h16J-0006Kw-00@hydrogen.imeme.net>

Hi, Dean,

> Is it possible to, with CSS, apply different formatting to relative > vs. non-relative anchor/hyper links?

The only way I've found to differentiate between relative and absolute links is to use classes. If there's a better way to do this (to build it into the style sheet w/out using classes), I'd be glad to hear it! If I understood your question correctly, I've wanted to do the same thing.

Using classes means deciding which you want to assume as a default, and then manually inserting the class when you create links for the other.

So, for example, on a zwiki, you might want to set the default for internal/relative links and have an "external" or "offSite" class for links that go outside the zwikiweb.

In your style sheet, this would set the offSite link color a kind of burgandy (but not change the color of the visited link):

a.offSite:link { color: #903; }

Then, each time you make an external link, you need to insert the class:

zwiki

Unfortunately, this means inserting the full HTML tag
you can't insert the class using STX shorthand for links.

If you also want external links to have a different color when visted, use:

a.offSite:visited { color: #c06; / or whatever / }

You can use contextual selectors to alter link formatting in specific contexts, but I don't think that would help you in this case.

Oh, here's a good tool for choosing colors:

http://www.visibone.com/color/chart/

Hope this helps.

bounced/duplicate emails to GeneralDiscussion --laura trippi, 2003/02/08 07:24 GMT
Sorry about the duplicate emails (I also managed to overlook John G's earlier reply to the CSS question, oops /blush/). Now I'm trying to figure out the constraints in the subject line for posting to the list.

Do I need to strip out "GeneralDiscussion" altogether, or any text that appears in front of it, or ... what?

thanks much,

::laura

mailin roles --DonaldBeaudry?, 2003/02/08 15:14 GMT
I'd like to configure ZWiki to allow read access to the world but write access only to my CMF members. For the most part, this is pretty easy. However, I'm having trouble with mailin support. Mailin appears to run as anonymous, so I can only get it to work if I also allow non-members to add comments. Since Im not concerned about email forgery, mailin's check for subscribed users will provide sufficient control. Can I cause mailin to run under the "member" role or is there a better solution?

HTML colours etc --JCLawrence, 2003/02/08 22:38 GMT
I rather like (and use) Mozilla sidebars for HTML colours, CSS codes, character encodings, etc. Quite nicely done.

2003/02/10 16:02 GMT
hi, i would like to know how to configure the standard_wiki_header. i wanted to have my own header and footer for my zwiki site but when i created standard_wiki_header and wrote there dtml-var my_header (the same for footer) there were no options to add a comment and so forth, the only things i can see are the text, but all the zwiki functions are gone! can somebody help me? thanks

Gardening --Dean Goodmanson, 2003/02/10 19:01 GMT
There's a lot of ad-hoc stuff which is parented to SearchPage? which needs to be weeded.

http://zwiki.org/SearchPage/map#SearchPage

A large portion is not english, so needs a special hand.

--- DeanG

ArnoPucher, 2003/02/11 09:28 GMT
regarding to "2003/02/10 16:02 GMT" Customizing your WIKI:

you will have to copy the contents of your standard_wiki_header etc. files (located in your Zope Installation at

$ZOPE_INSTALLATION_DIR/lib/python/Products/ZWiki/skins/default into

your Zope DTML Objects as a beginning - take a look at the CustomizationFAQ?

BTW: Please use the Useroptions and the Checkbox "with heading" to state your name. It's a lot easier to refer to your topic.

bounced/duplicate emails to GeneralDiscussion --SimonMichael, 2003/02/11 17:36 GMT
Hi Laura, welcome. Right now it should be working like this:

bounced/duplicate emails to GeneralDiscussion --SimonMichael, 2003/02/11 17:41 GMT
Note there is a (rare) issue where you can send one mail and everyone receives multiple duplicates. I think in your case a problem was the DTML you included in your mail - all pages on this site execute DTML by default. So when discussing DTML code you need to quote it, the most reliable way is to indent it after a line ending in :: .

Reparenting under CMF --SimonMichael, 2003/02/11 17:48 GMT
Fleshing out the zwiki_cmf skin is not a top priority for me at the moment.. I'll support anyone who wants to do it, it's just a matter of pulling bits from the standard skin. Note you can also change your CMF skins to use zwiki_orig instead of zwiki_cmf - that one includes the normal hierarchy stuff as on this site.

customizing your wiki --Simon Michael, 2003/02/11 18:21 GMT
zwiki@zwiki.org (ArnoPucher) writes:
> you will have to copy the contents of your standard_wiki_header etc.
> files (located in your Zope Installation at
> /lib/python/products/skins/default) into your Zope DTML Objects as a
> begging - take a look at the CustomizationFAQ?

A few more details on this..

  1. using the ZMI, create a DTMLMethod in your wiki folder called standard_wiki_header, and/or one called standard_wiki_footer.

1b. or, create a PageTemplate called wikipage. This is probably better, since you'll have to maintain only one object instead of two, and because the page template version of the skin is more current.

  1. edit these objects and paste in the content of the corresponding file in .../Products/ZWiki/skins/default/ on your filesystem.

Your wiki should look the same as before, but now it's skin comes from the objects in the wiki folder instead of from the built-in defaults. Edit eg wikipage and you should see the wiki's appearance change.

Be aware that you've now "frozen" your wiki's skin, and taken responsibility for maintaining it. This means that at your next zwiki upgrade, new features added to the default skin won't appear in your wiki until you manually merge the latest changes into your skin. It's even possible for your wiki pages to stop rendering due to changes in zwiki's API, though I try hard to prevent this.

Updating your skin to match the latest is usually straightforward, but it may be tedious work especially if you maintain multiple wikis. That's why skin objects are no longer installed in each wiki folder by default.

customizing your wiki --SimonMichael, 2003/02/11 18:39 GMT
PS in case it's not obvious, you can later delete these objects if you want to revert to the built-in skin. Also, though I use the word skin here, I'm not talking about CMF skins. This is zwiki's behaviour outside of a CMF site.

A zwiki folder inside a CMF site (added after registering the type with cmf_install_zwiki, or via the ZMI, or just by moving the folder from elsewhere) works differently. It's appearance comes from the user's current CMF skin, which by default uses the objects in portal_skins/zwiki_cmf. You can customize these in the normal CMF way - select one, click Customize, and edit it in the portal_skins/custom folder.

FlorianKonnertz, 2003/02/12 12:04 GMT
Hi! - Simon (or somebody else): Please help with the meaning of kw and **kw in the source, i read it once (it's Zope-derived isn't it?) but don't remember.

BTW, currently I'm learing [ZPT]?, i want to switch all modifications i made to it. Do you prefer it to [DTML]? or not, and why? What importance do you want it to have in future ZwikiDevelopment?? For ZWiki-1.0 ?

Gardening --FlorianKonnertz, 2003/02/12 12:16 GMT
There's a lot of ad-hoc stuff which is parented to SearchPage? which needs to be weeded. - Most of these pages have been marked PACOD 3 weeks ago. They can be deleted next week.

backlinks, mailin Issue --Dean Goodmanson, 2003/02/12 15:53 GMT
ZWiki Site is currently bogged down, and rarely accepts comments.

Hopefully this and my previous email worked.

I've noticed that backlinks are not catching FreeformLinks. John: Does this cause you much grief in your backlinks on each page?

Is it possible to email in a new Issue?

RestructuredText and FreeformLinks --PieterB, 2003/02/12 16:30 GMT
I've been reading the RestructuredText quick reference, http://docutils.sourceforge.net/docs/rst/quickref.html and I wonder what's the best way to implement FreeformLinks in future. I suggest something like the `phrase reference`_ or |substitution reference| or the [Citation reference], without specifying the hyperlink.

I personally like the FreeFormlinking? on WikiPedia, with [[Free form link]] the best.

Any ideas?

RestructuredText , FreeformLinks --DeanGoodmanson, 2003/02/12 17:36 GMT
I skimmed the doc and didn't see why our current FreeformLinks are a problem, just that we have to watch for special cases, such as "[Reference]_" and ".. [Reference]" cases where a "_" is followed or "<newline>.. " is prepended.. Are there other cases I'm not seeing?

I'd go for the double brackets if:

freeformlinks --DeanGoodmanson, 2003/02/12 17:45 GMT
I currently have dreams of freeform link shortcuts included inside the brackets, see SubPage?.

Quick overview: A special character (underscore or dash,TBD) immediate following the [ will be replaced with the page name and seperator upon rendering. Thus [-OpenQuestions] would become [GeneralDiscussion-OpenQuestions] upon rendering.

This also may be a case for double quotes, as RestructuredText footnotes include some inner bracket (with external decorations) notation also.

RestructuredText , FreeformLinks --PieterB, 2003/02/12 18:47 GMT

> !I skimmed the doc and didn't see why our current FreeformLinks are a problem,
> just that we have to watch for special cases, such as "[Reference]?_" and "..
> [Reference]?" cases where a "_" is followed or ".. " is prepended..
> Are there other cases I'm not seeing?

[some text] is interpreted in ReST as the footnote declarion of some text

[some text] is interpreted as a FreeformLink within Zwiki

If I understand it correctly the ReST way of indicating a link, is an underscore after the anchor, so I guess linking FreeFormlinks? in ReST in the most natural way is by using `some freeformlink`_ which seems quite ugly if you ask me...

The other way of implementing ReSt? within Zwiki would be to use the |substitution reference| syntax for freeform links, and if one would like to convert Zwiki to ReST, zwiki could then create valid ReST by appending:

.. |a freeform link| replace:: `a freeform link`_
.. _`a freeform link` http://zwiki.org/FreeformLink

And then using the docutils suite to convert the 'zwiki rst'-format to html.

See http://docutils.sourceforge.net/spec/rst/directives.txt for more info on RST directives.

Pieter

DeanGoodmanson, 2003/02/12 19:18 GMT
[some text] is interpreted in ReST as the footnote declarion of some text

I interpreted that as:

[some text]_ is interpreted in ReST as the footnote declarion of some text (pointing to ".. [some text]) "[link]_" and ".. [link]" seem technically discernable from zwiki's [link].

BTW, I'm a +.9 vote for moving to double brackets for free-form links. My list of issues is just as much a list of benefits (I hope!).

RestructuredText , FreeformLinks --SimonMichael, 2003/02/12 21:00 GMT
Hey all,

I don't have any plan to move to double brackets at this time, but I do want to support them, and allow the three types of link to be en/disabled in any wiki. I like double brackets because they are less prone to accidental linking while still being quite low-clutter, and they are compatible with wikipedia.

Also I'm aware we have a SiteReliability problem again - the site has grown, google is allowed again, and memory usage is hitting it's quota quite often it seems. I'll do something about this asap, probably a smarter monitor/restart script to begin with.

site reliability --SimonMichael, 2003/02/12 21:02 GMT
PS don't forget you can archive GeneralDiscussion any time if it's getting too slow.

GeneralDiscussion200302 --DeanGoodmanson, 2003/02/13 01:56 GMT
OpenQuestions?

  1. Did the [[[[#407 Some SubWiki pages can't be renamed] Some SubWiki pages can't be renamed] Some SubWiki pages can't be renamed] Some SubWiki pages can't be renamed] fix make it into the CVS default standard_wiki_footer file?
  2. What are the critical Weblog features you would want in a WikiWeblog??
  3. Is there a way to override the authentication name and always use zwiki_username for last-changed id?
  4. RFC handling.. What's the best way? (SHould? the RFC page be used, or chucked?) Creating description page and discussing in GeneralDiscussion current mechanism, and "let's all be be careful with adding pages and procedures, lest we bury ourselves in cobwebs. I sense duplication. We need to Keep It Simple Stupid."
  5. Seperating comments from the document. Was Dean's description appropriate? Does someone have a nugget for the ZWikiCookbook? ?
  6. Where should we start for CSS class attributes for ZWiki product pages?

------------------

There are a number of things in that page which could go into documents.

FAQ- customizing header & footer, CSS, RestructuredText, FreeformLinks

------------------

Noticed the page type does not include DTML, is this for memory issues? Only affects "AboutZwikiDiscussion" link.

Poll product embedding --DeanGoodmanson, 2003/02/13 02:16 GMT
I'm trying to get the Zope "Poll" product to work from within a ZWiki page.

I can get the index_html to display:

  1. Installed poll in /poll
  2. ZWiki page type had to be "DTML+HTML"
  3. Removed "standard_ _footer,header" ..not sure if that mattered from index_html
  4. Code:
     <dtml-with "poll">
      <dtml-var index_html><hr>
      <dtml-var results>
     </dtml-with>
    

Problem:

  1. Handling submit requests. How do I do this without including the poll folder in my URL?
  2. Showing results links without having to leave the page? (Currently doesn't display at all.)

HowToArchiveDiscussionPages --DeanGoodmanson, 2003/02/13 04:46 GMT
Here's how I tried to do it. Please correct.

(Note: I committed the sin of creating an archive page with ALL the contents, instead of creation, then paste. Sorry site-wide subscribers.)

p.s. I miss a more noticable comment seperator.

mook, 2003/02/13 13:03 GMT
hi, whenever i make use of the structed text within my zwiki site with the korean language it doesnt work. english works fine but how do i set zwiki so korean gets converted too? here it does work 진한글자 but not on my page, what could be the possible reasons?

adding optional subject --mook, 2003/02/13 13:06 GMT
hi again, quick question how do i add this optional subject tag in to my zwiki page? thanks

adding optional subject --DeanGoodmanson, 2003/02/13 15:12 GMT
Add something like this to your standard_wiki_footer ::

<small>
  <span style="color: gray;">optional subject: 
         <input type="text" name="subject_heading" value="" size="60" 
         maxlength="100" style="background-color: rgb(240, 240, 240);" 
         title="a subject helps clarify threads and RecentChanges">
  </span>
</small>

archive cleanup --DeanGoodmanson, 2003/02/14 06:06 GMT
Simon, You removed an unecesary warning from the archive page I created.

I think it was the footer, but if I was in error,would you please also remove the warning from the HowToArchiveDiscussionPages page?

FlorianKonnertz, 2003/02/14 10:17 GMT
I have problems with a new installation: ZWiki-0.15 on Zope-2.6.1, Python-2.1.3:

  2003-02-14T11:16:11 ERROR(200) Zope Could not import Products.ZWiki
  Traceback (innermost last):
  File /usr/local/Zope-2.6.1-src/lib/python/OFS/Application.py, line 541, in import_product
  File /usr/local/zope/lib/python/Products/ZWiki/__init__.py, line 12, in ?
  File /usr/local/zope/lib/python/Products/ZWiki/ZWikiPage.py, line 45, in ?
  File /usr/local/zope/lib/python/Products/ZWiki/Regexps.py, line 68, in ?
  File /usr/local/lib/python2.1/locale.py, line 339, in getdefaultlocale
  File /usr/local/lib/python2.1/locale.py, line 272, in _parse_localename
  ValueError: unknown locale: de_DE@euro

Is something wrong with my Python or do i need a special locale file (i'm not yet familiar with I18N)? - On another box it's ok (with exactly the same versions).

WimBekker, 2003/02/14 10:34 GMT
I'm still using Zope 2.6.0 with 0.11. I would like to update, but things run well and I have changed the layout etc which take a lot of time because I'm not to familiar with python etc. I've said all run well, but suddenly, from one day to the other day, I get a TimeDateSearch? KeyError? whe I use GeneralDiscussion200302. I think this is in Regexps.py. What is causing this error?

Florian Konnertz, 2003/02/14 11:32 GMT
WimBekker wrote:
I get a TimeDateSearch? KeyError? whe I use <dtml-var
"wikilink(title)">. I think this is in Regexps.py. What is causing this error?
Could you give more details, please?

hidden edit link --DeanGoodmanson, 2003/02/15 17:47 GMT
Currently in the standard_wiki_header, there's a hidden link to the annoying quote page. Search for "AnnoyingQuote#bottom"

I would like the addition of a hidden edit link, so that when a page is clunked by bad HTML or footer failure, there's still a clickable way in. I found it easy enough to add this line alongside the other hidden link :

 <dtml-if "AUTHENTICATED_USER.has_permission('Zwiki: Edit pages',this())">
 <td bgcolor="#dddddd" align="left"><a href="&dtml-wiki_url;/&dtml-id;/editform">
 <img src="/p_/sp" height=2 width=2 border=0 alt="edit"></a></td>
 </dtml-if>

For usability, I also increased the width of these, but that's strictly a personal preference.

How to access ZWiki after import into Zope? --2003/02/15 18:20 GMT
I installed debian package zope and zope-zwiki and created a new Wiki Web "Test" via the Zope-Manager Interface. "Test" ist now accessible via http://localhost:9673/Control_Panel/Products/ZWiki/Test but what is the normal user-access URL for the Wiki "Test"? http://localhost:9673/ZWiki/Test or /Test gives just "Resource not found, Resource: ZWiki GET"

How to access ZWiki after import into Zope? --DeanGoodmanson, 2003/02/16 00:24 GMT
What about http://localhost:973/Test ?

How to access ZWiki after import into Zope? --2003/02/16 17:55 GMT
Sorry, same error with that, also with "/" suffix. I guess you meant http://localhost:9673/Test The page showing up:

"Site Error An error was encountered while publishing this resource. Resource not found Sorry, the requested resource does not exist. Check the URL and try again. Resource: Test GET"

import --DeanGoodmanson, 2003/02/17 00:12 GMT
Quite baffled at your scenario.

Do you have file system access? I'm baffled at how you originally installed ZWiki.

When you say "Import", are you talking about Zope's import mechanism to import a folder [or other object]??

(Did set the port to 9673??)

site down report. --DeanGoodmanson, 2003/02/17 00:56 GMT
Site went down for a bit. I was browsing zwikidir stuff.

wiki linking ponderings --DeanGoodmanson, 2003/02/17 01:03 GMT
Would somebody mind pointing me to the wiki linking discussions on C2 or Meatball regarding case ambiguity within a Wiki link?

Technically, I'm wondering if it's a processor (or social) hit to match any word matching WikiWord? word to another, regardless of case, as long as they're both Wiki Words. So that PyThon? and PythOn? would match. No need to guess the magic capital. (Freeforming would alleviate the issue, but brackets aren't the handyest and currently ugly in a SubWiki.) (With that in mind, ignoring a trailing s in wiki words would also help the plural problem. But, as you can see, I digress, and need to find the appropriate wiki to discuss this.)

Also, would implementing a forced character length limit on FreeformLinks increase effeciency?

WimBekker, 2003/02/17 09:58 GMT
More details for my wikilink problem: I've kind a copied the FrontPage to show the latest Tracker issues on my own FrontPage. The line "GeneralDiscussion200302
" gives the error. If I remove this line, the error is gone. I guess one of the issues has a bug but it is only displayed in my FrontPage. For now, I've just removed the lines.

TimeDateSearch? error --FlorianKonnertz, 2003/02/17 10:56 GMT
Wim: Have you tried to set the issues displayed manually so you can figure out which one causes the error? - This would be one possible approach, i guess. - The problem sounds strange. Could you post the exact error msg (traceback) please?

locale bug --FlorianKonnertz, 2003/02/19 10:27 GMT
Just FYI, i got the solution. No more help needed. - http://openspirit.homelinux.net/noowiki/python/Locale

Later... Ok, just found #329 change alt-1 to something else ?...

zwikidotork error --FlorianKonnertz, 2003/02/19 14:52 GMT
In encountered this error on several pages:

  Debugging Notice
  Zope has encountered a problem publishing your object.
  The object at http://zwiki.org/zwiki has an empty or missing docstring. 
  Objects must have a docstring to be published. 

which Zope version runs ZWikiDotOrg?? --FlorianKonnertz, 2003/02/20 10:30 GMT
Simon: On which Zope version runs ZWikiDotOrg?, please?

PieterB, 2003/02/20 10:33 GMT
FloK, just follow the Netcraft link on Zwiki.

(the answer is Zope 2.6.1 final on FreeBSD?).

zope version and issue trackers --FlorianKonnertz, 2003/02/20 12:48 GMT
Thanks Pieter for info about the version (i was to lazy to search:-)

Also thanks for the ZopeIssueTrackers? page!

zope version --SimonMichael, 2003/02/20 16:39 GMT
Yes, I upgraded two days ago. Also upgraded plone to 1.0.1 (congrats Plone!) and checked in some changes to facilitate mailing list integration.

import puzzle --SimonMichael, 2003/02/20 16:42 GMT
Also, if you want to test your wits against a nice puzzle - earlier in the month I tried to clean up the messy conditional import of CMFAwareness? in ZWikiPage.py. It's there so that the unit tests can run. I failed to solve the import puzzles and had to back out my changes.

site tests --Simon Michael, 2003/02/20 21:21 GMT
I'm having some success with building automated site tests just using pyunit and curl, and have started a suite for zwiki.org.

Many people call these functional tests, but my understanding is functional/structural refers to the style of testing, orthogonal to the scope of the tests (unit/integration/system). These tests are really system tests and/or unit tests with larger units. Also, they are intended to test a live system; I'm not sure of the terminology for that. I found a paper clarifying this at the back of How To Break Software (if someone finds it online let me know).

One insight for me is that to test a complex application, you have to make it testable, and that means looking at the system as a whole and being willing to make whatever changes are necessary, including zope, mailman, python etc. So far I've made small changes in zwiki and mailman to support these and allow them to be run at any time without disturbing users. Mailman's test code was very helpful here.

How this might tie in to the ZwikiAndFit, we'll find out later.

CMF comment add touch up. --2003/02/21 06:37 GMT
Quick silly question: In ZWiki under CMF where is the header assembled when a comment with header is appended to a page? I want to change the form of the markup from just the raw CMF login name to

CMF comment add touch up. --2003/02/21 17:54 GMT
comment() in ZWikiPage.py. Sorry it's not yet templatized, patches welcome.

mailman list set up --Simon Michael, 2003/02/23 07:50 GMT
Hi all, welcome to the new zwiki@zwiki.org mailman list. This is integrated with the wiki as described at ZwikiAndMailingLists. More details have been added at ZwikiAndMailman.

The main mailman url is http://zwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/zwiki . You can set digest mode, etc. If you want to unsubscribe and don't remember your email address, use the visit subscriber list button.

Thanks for helping with this experiment. We may find that changes are needed. Here's how it works now, in a nutshell:

  1. wiki comments appear on the list, with the page name in brackets in the subject
  2. mail to the list appears on the page specified in the subject, or to GeneralDiscussion.

mailman list set up --simon, 2003/02/23 07:59 GMT
PS, GeneralDiscussion page subscribers will have received that last message also, but are not members of the mailman list. The mailing list delivers to "whole wiki" subscribers; it's still possible to subscribe to one or more pages, in which case zwiki delivers the mail directly as before.

RFC: front page changes ? --SimonMichael, 2003/02/23 20:01 GMT
I think it would be good to have more of a table of contents/roadmap on the FrontPage. However that will make it quite crowded. Is it a good idea to de-emphasize the GD comments on front page ? Perhaps just show subjects ? It could be enhanced to show comments from all pages also.

RFC: front page changes --DeanGoodmanson, 2003/02/23 21:18 GMT

>> Is it a good idea to de-emphasize the GD comments on front page ?

I think so. For a product/knowlege-base site Navigation seems more important than snap-shot. Perhaps re-inforcing the content areas would help to replant discussion tidbits.

Hmmm... A "latest discussion posts" page would be nifty, showing the last 3 comments (and possibley OpenQuestions?) for each Discussion page, but I think that's better suited to a seperate page. This sounds like it would render slow on a FrontPage.

How often does GD bloat clog that FrontPage last-three list?

rename memory clunk --DeanGoodmanson, 2003/02/23 21:21 GMT
I can't rename OutstandingDiscussionQuestion? to OpenQuestions? (with update links checked)

The hex in the traceback was new to me.

Traceback (innermost last):

    * Module ZPublisher.Publish, line 150, in publish_module
    * Module Products.Localizer, line 58, in new_publish
    * Module ZPublisher.Publish, line 114, in publish
    * Module Zope.App.startup, line 182, in zpublisher_exception_hook
    * Module ZPublisher.Publish, line 102, in publish
    * Module Zope.App.startup, line 200, in commit
    * Module ZODB.Transaction, line 235, in commit
    * Module ZODB.Transaction, line 349, in _commit_objects
    * Module ZODB.Connection, line 390, in commit
      __traceback_info__: (('Products.ZWiki.ZWikiPage', 'ZWikiPage'), '\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x1bod', '')

 MemoryError

RFC: front page changes ? --SimonMichael, 2003/02/23 22:39 GMT
Ah, I think that's better. Check it out (FrontPage). The comments are still from GeneralDiscussion only.

rename memory clunk --SimonMichael, 2003/02/23 22:42 GMT
It worked for me, but I got lucky. We are generally borderline within our memory quota at the moment. I've reduced the target zodb cache size from 2300 to 2000 which may help.

warning: I switched the reparent and rename buttons --SimonMichael, 2003/02/23 23:04 GMT

RFC: non-blank subject generates heading ? --SimonMichael, 2003/02/24 00:27 GMT
I have become quite attached to the subject field. Assume it's always there. If we drop the with heading checkbox and say to get a heading, enter a subject.. how would it be ? An ergonomic improvement and inducement to enter subjects, or a cause of unintended unheaded comments ? The heading-defaults-to-on behaviour on discussion and issue pages would be gone, or if it remained there's no visual cue for it.

maintainer cleanup --DeanGoodmanson, 2003/02/24 00:28 GMT
I cleaned up the page maintainer links. The page maintainer(s) still needs to be done.

I only added badges to personal pages whom are pagemaintainers of pages I cleaned up.

Summary of terms:

If you maintain a page, please badge your own page with the PageMaintainer badge.
If you are maintining a page, please badge that page with Page Maintainers

Do not WikiLink those pages when referring to the concepts, and if you need to link, use structured text, or an HTML anchor tag w/ the name broken up, as I have done above.

maintainer cleanup --SimonMichael, 2003/02/24 00:36 GMT
Yay! Thanks for that.

RFC: non-balnk subject --DeanGoodmanson, 2003/02/24 00:42 GMT

>> If we drop the with heading checkbox and say to get a heading, enter a subject.. how would it be ?

I like that.

Caveat: It feels like a minor edit.

Would only comments with subjects get mailed out?

Can *Discussion get a filled in value for the subject? "Comment" or ???

---

I'm a two+ pass editor. First change=major, second=polish, etc. I have to remember to keep adding the subject for RecentChanges? watchers, and hope they don't rely too much on diff's.

Dam*&Y( I want to provide useful feedback, but most of the time think I'm clouding the issue. Please advise.

mailout comment

I miss the hyperlink back to the page in the mail footers. :-/ (That may be just be mailing list mode, and I don't have a nice enough mail account to reply w/out annoying tag-lines.)

RFC: non-blank subject generates heading ? --SimonMichael, 2003/02/24 01:12 GMT
I appreciate your feedback very much. It is hard to reply sometimes, because we touch on many confusing details and I can't always quickly get the exact gist of what people are saying. Your comment above for example, I'm sure if we were in the same room we'd have a mind meld but in this medium there are a couple of things you've said I don't immediately grok. We'd probably do much better taking some of these discussions to irc.

Also, not to single you out, but using this as an opportunity to gather some faq material :) Style, spelling and formatting matter. Scattered remarks, too much white space, too much formatting may make a comment harder to understand. When replying to a thread via wiki, it may be a good idea to copy and paste the exact subject; that way mail clients can preserve threads even without the proper in-reply-to headers.

RFC: non-blank subject generates heading ? --SimonMichael, 2003/02/24 01:24 GMT
And that should probably have been a new thread. Never mind.

I wasn't thinking of changing mailout - all comments would still mail out. On the other hand I'm not ruling that out either.

You're right, we could fill in a default subject in some cases. Hmmm.

I don't think about the note/subject in RC too much when I'm commenting.. more so when I'm editing. Right now it's possible to comment without a heading yet still set the RC transaction note.. I don't think I'd miss that much.

I turned off the mailout footer because I don't know how to have mailman put the correct page url in there if someone sends via the list..

discussions, doubts, how to use this medium most effectively.. --SimonMichael, 2003/02/24 01:44 GMT
To continue a line of thought.. sometimes I have these misgivings that we're generating all these pages of intricate discussion, meaningful to us in the short term, but destined to be indexed, mirrored and preserved forever around the net, with never the time to review/summarize/extract value for future readers. This applies to our "document-mode" pages too I think. Look at the content of this wiki, how much of it is useful to anyone in the medium and long term, and how much of the pages we slaved over become effectively chaff, cluttering up search results and soaking up performance and maintenance effort ? What are people's thoughts on this ? I feel that use of right medium (irc/wiki/mail/?..), steady mindful deletion (go Florian!), things like PageMaintainers (showing good signs) may be parts of the answer. Also the mailing list, since with a standard read-only archive of all posts we can feel more free to aggressively condense the wiki pages.

RFC: non-blank subject generates heading ? --SimonMichael, 2003/02/24 02:07 GMT
Well, as usual, I guess we can live with it for a little and see how we like it..

A heading is now added if you enter a subject. Except, on discussion and issue pages it always adds a heading. For the moment.

RFC: non-blank subject generates heading ? --SimonMichael, 2003/02/24 02:11 GMT
Agh no, too confusing. Let's bite the bullet and always post comments with a heading! We need our attention for better things.

discussions, doubts, how to use this medium most effectively.. --DeanGoodmanson, 2003/02/24 04:38 GMT
Thanks for the feedback. I'm looking forward to page cleanup and *Discussion coordination.

I'd prefer that the AboutZwikiDiscussion be re-written an as index (roadmap?). I'll write it this week if you'd like. My group's wikis are appropriately criticized for lack of descriptive categories, indexes, etc.

PUT_method for Zwiki --JordanCarswell, 2003/02/24 05:14 GMT
I've been playing around with BackTalk? and their use of PUT_factory is kind of cool. I found a reference to using it with Zwiki under, HowToCreateZwikiPagesWithPut, but I am wary of turning every FTP or WebDAV upload into a Zwiki doc. BackTalk? has its PUT_factory stored in its Extensions folder instead of under Zope's Extensions folder as suggested in the above page. This seems more reasonable for me. Couldn't I place the PUT_method in Zwiki's Extensions folder? What considerations might there be?

RFC: front page changes --FlorianKonnertz, 2003/02/24 12:05 GMT
Is it a good idea to de-emphasize the GD comments on front page ? - Yes, imho. I like the FP better now. For newcomers the GD entries are quite too special, they should just see there's much traffic, that's most important, imo.

RFC: non-blank subject generates heading ? --FlorianKonnertz, 2003/02/24 12:07 GMT
I guess we can live with it for a little and see how we like it.. - Vote +1, i'm note sure if it's useful but i guess so.

discussions, doubts, how to use this medium most effectively.. --FlorianKonnertz, 2003/02/24 12:27 GMT
I'd prefer that the AboutZwikiDiscussion be re-written an as index (roadmap?).Sounds good. Could you explain further please, Dean. What do you mean by "index"? Use of catalog?

My group's wikis are appropriately criticized for lack of descriptive categories, indexes, etc. - Yes, it's a pity not to have more sophisticated categorization in zwiki :-( ... but i'm sure we'll soon make some progress in this issue. :-)

Here's a note about my current ideas, visions, approaches: Imo, ZWiki and Wiki in general must be improved asap with a better way of categorizing content. I'm experimenting currently with NooWiki:ThomasKalka in building a NooWiki:WikiOntology (briefly:how to map different Ontology schemes to each other), he does it in his NooWiki:CoForum wiki and i will follow soon in NooWiki. Another categorized wiki i've come over recently is NooWiki:CarnaticWiki, a PhpWiki by NooWiki:KishoreBalakrishnan, he's also interested in this development. - RFC: I'm VERY interested in further ideas, etc. Any links etc. are most appreciated.

Wiki and RestructuredText --PieterB, 2003/02/24 17:27 GMT
Hi IanB?,

I'm interested in your wiki project for the docutils project:

http://docutils.sourceforge.net/sandbox/ianb/wiki/

I would like to add rest-support for Zwiki (http://www.zwiki.org/). Could you tell me your plans with wiki for restructured text? Do you have more python-code which I can use? I'm planning to start developping when Zope 2.7 alpha will be available. I'm cc'ing this messag to http://zwiki.org/RestructuredText. Please feel free to join the discussion there.

Regards,

PieterB

Misc discussion --PieterB, 2003/02/24 17:44 GMT
Why did the last message end up here, and not on RestructuredText? I just cc'd the message into the Wiki.

Mailman integration and new FrontPage both are looking good!

Re: Wiki and RestructuredText --Ian Bicking, 2003/02/24 20:44 GMT
On Mon, 2003-02-24 at 11:34, PieterB wrote:
> I'm interested in your wiki project for the docutils project:
>
> http://docutils.sourceforge.net/sandbox/ianb/wiki/

CVS seems to be slightly more up-to-date than that link, and I cleaned up a couple things just now. (But only slightly)


> I would like to add rest-support for Zwiki (http://www.zwiki.org/).
> Could you tell me your plans with wiki for restructured text?
> Do you have more python-code which I can use?
> I'm planning to start developping when Zope 2.7 alpha will be available.
> I'm cc'ing this messag to http://zwiki.org/RestructuredText. Please feel
> free to join the discussion there.

I'm really only planning to make a trivial sort of Wiki, which is portable between a number of frameworks (different frontends, with Wiki.py being the shared backend). Better than PikiPiki?, perhaps, but that's all.

I don't really know what the architecture of ZWiki is, but mostly what I'd imagine you using is the last part of Wiki.py, which is just some stuff to wrap reST. Oh, and you'd want to look at the _subWikiLinks and _convertText methods of Wiki.

The only thing I add to reST is that any unresolved links become Wiki links, and on display those are fixed up (e.g., a ? is put after non-existent pages). There's no StudlyCaps? link support, nor any of the special tags like MoinMoin has (though adding new Wiki-oriented directives would make sense). ReST is too slow to run for every page view, so you have to precompile and then fix the HTML up on display (for instance, I put a ! before Wiki links, then use a regex to find those links when they're ready to display).

Ian

Misc discussion --SimonMichael, 2003/02/24 21:25 GMT
Thanks Pieter, glad you like them. Note that only a page name in brackets in the subject will direct a mailin now, perhaps that will help.

closed mailman list against spam --SimonMichael, 2003/02/25 03:08 GMT
The mailman list was open to spam - I've configured it to hold non-subscriber posts for approval now.

questions, questions --SimonMichael, 2003/02/25 04:42 GMT
I just signed the NotInOurName statement of conscience and copied it here, because I like it, and I'm used to posting things that I like here. Maybe my installing the text here was a bit undemocratic, since I try to facilitate a genuine community here.

I think this issue is on-topic for those living on this planet, and that it's important for people and communities everywhere to carefully consider their thoughts and actions in this regard. I personally don't want war/anti-war debate on zwiki.org but I am wondering.. What's right action for this community ? What is our collective will and response to those with power to affect our work and our wellbeing, if any ? We are net citizens and have some voice, some power and some responsibility.

xml-rpc --DeanGoodmanson, 2003/02/25 04:58 GMT
I have some needs to query zwiki info outside of the server. (a. Does this page exist? (No) b. Create it.) From the outside XML-RPC sounds like the way to go. It can be used within and outside.

I'm having a rotten time finding anything more than that you can write XLM-RPC methods in External Methods. I feel like I'm missing something. Can someone clue me in?

More links at [XMLRPC interface for wikis]?

xml-rpc --SimonMichael, 2003/02/25 05:12 GMT
Sorry, no speakee rpcee. Dumb alternative ?:

 assert not re.search('could not find any likely page',commands.getoutput('curl -sL http://site/page'))

questions, questions --DeanGoodmanson, 2003/02/25 06:02 GMT

>> What's right action for this community ?

My suggestion is to make this an exception, not the norm, or create a seperate SubWiki. This is an exceptional case due to the timeliness and intensity.


>> What is our collective will and response to those with power to affect our work and our wellbeing, if any ?

Thats a tough one. Pass the remote. I've spent the last hour trying to sum up 3 months of info acknowledgement and stream-of-conscience-activism (bloggers, primarily) avoidance along with a summary of my confusion and sentiments over the document. After moving the text to Word for review before posting, I've decided to let the thoughts settle for a few days.

Where is this creed and it's signatures going?

Upon second review this sounds abrasive, which is not the intention. I am reserved.

comment box --DeanGoodmanson, 2003/02/25 06:09 GMT
Is submitting a patch which would allow the number of displayed rows in the comment box a cookie'd User Option worthwhile?

footer --DeanGoodmanson, 2003/02/25 06:20 GMT
I would prefer the footer (page) management controls be moved to what is currently the backlinks page, editable by clicking on the page name. Reasons upon request.

IRC --DeanGoodmanson, 2003/02/25 06:24 GMT
Wish I could get on IRC through my option: mIRC. The only variable I think that's left for me is the port number. Are you using 6667?

Thanks for the details on the FrontPage. Spent too long trying to get on #Zope because I could not find a consistent hostname when goog

--Julien, 2003/02/25
Hi i Set in in Zwiki a page called [Artsonore]? to try to explain to people in the artsonore area the importance of working with wiki and also because i find your work with Zwiki very good! I'm sorry the discussion are in French... is it possible to continue discussion on this page. best - Julien

comment box --SimonMichael, 2003/02/27 16:50 GMT
Publish it for others, sure.. perhaps the dtml cookbook area ? I don't think I'd include it as a default option though.

page management form --SimonMichael, 2003/02/27 16:54 GMT
I know it clutters the page in full mode.. yet I find it so useful having it right there that I've left it.

IRC --SimonMichael, 2003/02/27 16:56 GMT
Sorry you're having trouble with mirc. irc.freenode.net, standard port 6667, channel #zwiki, #zope etc. I'd try another client.

site reliability --SimonMichael, 2003/02/27 17:10 GMT
We are being hammered by "Webreaper" from 200.131.37.198 right now, ignoring all robot directives. (And the occasional genteel probe from googlebot).

The "out of memory killer" - a new cron job run every minute which restarts zope if memory usage has grown too close to quota - seems to mostly be working well. Here's the log from the last couple of days:

 2003/02/25 03:01:01 GMT *** zope too big, restarting
 2003/02/25 07:07:00 GMT *** zope too big, restarting
 2003/02/25 15:07:00 GMT *** zope too big, restarting
 2003/02/25 20:00:10 GMT *** zope too big, restarting
 2003/02/26 05:54:00 GMT *** zope too big, restarting
 2003/02/26 08:17:00 GMT *** zope too big, restarting
 2003/02/26 08:27:00 GMT *** zope too big, restarting
 2003/02/26 09:05:00 GMT *** zope too big, restarting
 2003/02/26 15:11:00 GMT *** zope too big, restarting
 2003/02/26 15:59:01 GMT *** zope too big, restarting
 2003/02/26 19:40:00 GMT *** zope too big, restarting
 2003/02/27 09:30:04 GMT *** zope too big, restarting
 2003/02/27 13:38:00 GMT *** zope too big, restarting
 2003/02/27 15:44:00 GMT *** zope too big, restarting

I've noticed this often restarting zope amazingly fast - 10 seconds! It's just doing an orderly stop & start of the ZEO client. I think in the past I've relied on the imeme emergencyzopestart.sh which kills all.

So, although this is a workaround for the unknown memory leak(s), it should mean you're far less likely to see site errors due to #351 zwiki.org's zope server leaks memory (and hangs/restarts when it reaches quota). The only fly in the ointment is that the OOM killer failed to restart zope last time, after 10 minutes, not sure why.

comment box --SimonMichael, 2003/02/27 17:17 GMT
We could at least make the standard footer's comment form be cookie-aware though, so that it would be easy for those who want to add the option to UserOptions?.

Simon Michael, 2003/02/27 17:45 GMT
zwiki@zwiki.org (WimBekker) writes:
> I'm still using Zope 2.6.0 with 0.11. I would like to update, but things run
> well and I have changed the layout etc which take a lot of time because I'm
> not to familiar with python etc. I've said all run well, but suddenly, from
> one day to the other day, I get a TimeDateSearch? KeyError? whe I use dtml-var
> "wikilink(title)". I think this is in Regexps.py. What is causing this error?

Hi Wim, hard to say. Post the traceback if this is still a problem.

halt, robot! --SimonMichael, 2003/02/27 18:15 GMT
Ok that's enough. The darn thing is calling GET changeProperties (why ?) on all the issue pages and updating their last modified time. I've blocked it.

halt, robot! --SimonMichael, 2003/02/27 18:18 GMT
This one was also doing a GET on each of the ?setcookies links (display mode) on every page. That's pretty dumb.

Discussion of a next-generation mail archiver for MailMan? --PieterB, 2003/02/27 20:03 GMT
See http://www.amk.ca/mailman/listinfo/ng-arch

I think we should see if we can contribute this project and see how Mailman 2.2 would integrate within a future Zwiki ;)

2003/02/28 17:15 GMT
Howdy,

I'd like to customize misc_/ZWiki/ZWikiPage_icon.gif

My first choice would be to place my image at misc_/ZWiki/ZWikiPage_icon.gif

I tried creating a folder named misc_ to put ZWiki/ZWikiPage_icon.gif into .. that failed due to duplicate ID

I then tried installing standard_wiki_header, it made the manage this page rename reparent stuff to disappear.

Suggestions? (zwiki_version 0.16.0cvs)

Thanks,
Kent

comment divisions --DeanGoodmanson, 2003/02/28 18:28 GMT
Comments without a subject need some sort of differentiation. Subject works OK because it's bold. My suggestion is to make the entire line bold, or add decoration before and after the header text.

changing header --DeanGoodmanson, 2003/02/28 18:30 GMT
See this faq?