Archived GeneralDiscussion. Please post new comments on that page.


comments:

FrontPage --laura trippi, 2003/08/01 01:00 GMT reply
Hm, couldn't resist jumping in on this, though if I misunderstand something (I've missed parts of the discussion) and my thoughts aren't relevant, you can of of course ignore them! =}

SimonMichael wrote: > I don't think ZwikiBlog is too useful on FrontPage; most of this > site's activity is in comments, not new pages. If only we had some > reliable way to find recent comments across all pages.

I was confused about it at first. And actually, still find it confusing. Even though I know it's not supposed to be showing GD, I'm surprised and have to remind myself. Maybe that's just me.

DeanGoodmanson wrote:

I'd like the entry seperators to also be a bit more prominent.

Do you mean page headings on ZwikiBlog, or comment headings ?

Headings on ZwikiBlog. I have trouble scanning for the dividing point between pages.

Umm, "page headings on ZwikiBlog" means the headings on individual postings (or whatever) on the ZwikiBlog page? Some of which appear against a pink table backdrop (if they're from the IssueTracker) and others which don't, yes?

If I understand correctly, I agree, visual cues to support scannablity would be very useful! And also consistency. For example, I'd also prefer stronger cues for scannability in wikimail headers (also helps break up the page).

Ideally, this could be controlled/adjusted w/out going into the template code. I don't know what's possible so, just for example: if the ZwikiBlog posting headers were h3 and wikimail headers h4, then the exact characterstics of each could be adjusted via the style sheets, including adding horizontal lines to break up the page, if that were desired.

Or, both could be h3, with 2 different classes (or w/1 as the default). And, the IssueTracker postings could be set so that they are subordinate to/visible "through" the other headings, but ideally also controlled by the style sheets.

I'm not sure which approach would make the most sense since I don't fully understand the differences between wikimail and zwikiblog.

But it might be a chance to further nudge layout/design out of the code into the style sheets, and make the page more easily grokkable in terms of the functionality/underlying architecture.

You people work hard! =}

LaT

FrontPage --DeanGoodmanson, 2003/08/01 01:13 GMT reply
LaT wrote:

Umm, "page headings on ZwikiBlog" means the headings on individual postings (or whatever) on the ZwikiBlog page?

Yep

'd also prefer stronger cues for scannability in wikimail headers (also helps break up the page).

I still hear requests for the old <hr> breaks in my wiki world...I left them out (for too long) seeing if people really missed them (and watching the effects of my existing wikimail hacks :-}) but thanks for your support.

But it might be a chance to further nudge layout/design out of the code into the style sheets

:-) :-) :-)

Let's start: StyleSheets (Arg, if that's not the right term.. WikiStyleClasses? ??) My capability for precise terminology sometimes eludes me..

... --ftour, 2003/08/01 03:07 GMT reply
Your setup might just be overkill. Just adding a default MailHost at root (id: MailHost), SMTP host as localhost (if SMTP is so), default SMTP port (25), and a mail_from property with a valid email address as value, this should be enough for mail-outs. Mail-in is another story. I find edits as mailout_policy a bit impractical, but that's a matter of opinion.

FrontPage --Bill Seitz, 2003/08/01 15:55 GMT reply
Is maybe the problem that (a) wikis aren't the ideal discussion medium, and (b) that's doubly true when half the discussion gets dumped into GeneralDiscussion?

Here's one different model: have a 2nd Tracker in the same directory which is for non-bug threads. (You'd probably want to eliminate many of the fields in the form.) (Or, you could use the same single Tracker, but add either a new field or a new value to an existing field to handle this type of item.) This is basically a sneaky way to encourage the creation of lots of granular pages.

Then FrontPage can just use a RecentChanges? model of showing the last comment for each page.

A possible downside: pretty much forces everyone to subscribe to the whole site. But that probably makes sense anyway, since the distinction between what happens in GeneralDiscussion vs other pages seems completely arbitrary to me.

... -- 2003/08/01 16:08 GMT reply
Hey, that worked. Thanks, ftour! I'm guessing it was the fact my MailHost was named something other than MailHost. It Didn't catch me for internally-developed projects where we just use code that's vague enough that it finds any MailHost object, but did in this case, obviously. Thanks!

-roy

FrontPage --DeanGoodmanson, 2003/08/01 16:17 GMT reply
BillSeitz, on 2nd Tracker for non-bug Threads

A possible downside: pretty much forces everyone to subscribe to the whole site

Subscribing to the "whole tracker" is a feature I've been hesistant to request, but since you mention it.. ;-) Now that we have an "IsIssue?" field it may be a much simpler implementation!

I'm still pondering moving discussion threads to individual issue/record pages. The idea is novel and the Friday part of me wants to dig through it for potential killer features, but I'll leave that for travelling this weekend and get back to you later (If I come up w/ anything..)

Zwiki 0.21 released --Simon Michael, 2003/08/01 21:49 GMT reply
Summary: A number of important bugfixes & usability tweaks for wiki mail and the Plone/CMF skin, and preliminary optional Purple Numbers support (fine-grained linking).

More information: http://zwiki.org/ReleaseNotes , http://zwiki.org/KnownIssues , http://zwiki.org

Download: http://zwiki.org/releases/ZWiki-0.21.0.tgz (not yet available on zope.org due to upgrade)

Best wishes, --Simon

NooWiki goes plone! --SimonMichael, 2003/08/01 23:02 GMT reply
One more thing.. Florian's NooWiki has just received a very nice facelift. Some things to check out:

site reliability update --SimonMichael, 2003/08/02 18:10 GMT reply
Bah.. sorry about the downtime. Something must be done. Quick review of status -

The server is restarting frequently these days for the usual reason - we're not currently able to reliably serve a 1700-page heavily-cataloged wiki in multiple threads while getting heavily trawled by google, within Imeme's standard 100Mb memory quota.

Also, I must admit there have been some times where I've been restarting it myself more than I should, testing new code.

Since it most often comes back up in ~10 seconds, this has been tolerable. However: after a restart the first couple of operations are much slower than usual as the zope fills it's caches. More seriously, my out-of-memory watchdog script (testzope, run every minute) sometimes fails to restart zope, leaving the site down until imeme's zope-process-counting watchdog script (124.testzope, run every hour or... ?) restarts it.. but this sometimes fails as well, for unknown reasons. So, we end up with frequent outages , some lasting multiple hours.

What's the simplest thing that could possibly work ? Some things we've tried and things we haven't:

IssueNo0232? seems to be the starting point for this topic.

RecentChanges? update --SimonMichael, 2003/08/02 18:34 GMT reply
Yes, I did some more tweaking on RecentChanges?. Time-based queries, page excerpts, and I've gone to a more spacious layout to try and keep it readable. Some of the power of the zope catalog is starting to show I think. Excerpts are just the first 300 characters of the page. Listing all pages with excerpts is slow, but gives quite an interesting wide-angle overview of the wiki. Discussion also taking place on RecentChangesDevelopment.

Be warned: armed with a basic feel for HTML, DTML and the zope/zwiki data model and API, this kind of development is quite addictive. It starts with a quick note for later.. then you mock up some of the HTML widgets.. add a little DTML to get it started.. oh and I'll just make it do this.. (N hours pass)

cool flash --SimonMichael, 2003/08/02 19:42 GMT reply
http://www.globalcommunity.org/index_yo.html (flash, 1.5M)

... -- 2003/08/02 20:55 GMT reply

WikiFolder? gone, breaking existing wiki sites --FredYankowski -- 2003/08/02 21:04 GMT reply
I updated ZWiki from CVS today, getting the HEAD. Now my existing ZWiki/plone sites don't work, apparently because they use WikiFolder? and that class is now gone. Visiting the wiki object in the ZMI shows (only) a broken object. Attempting to visit the wiki results in a plone 404/not-found error. How can I recover from this? How are existing sites supposed to continue with WikiFolder? gone?

Re: zwiki upgrade ideas --Simon Michael, 2003/08/02 21:30 GMT reply
(cc'ing this info to zwiki.org, hope you don't mind)

Ivo van der Wijk writes:

We're currently running 0.9.4 - can you tell if an immediate upgrade to the most current version is possible, or does it have to be done in

Yes, just jump to the latest. No steps necessary.

I admire your concern for a seamless transition through such a big upgrade (the biggest Zwiki upgrade yet), for users of free accounts. In theory the wikis will just keep working after you reboot, but you are jumping across two years of development and it's hard to predict what you'll see. Here's my best guess:

No guarantees, but there are no known upgrade issues that would cause data loss - they are all of the "stuff stops working until you take care of this" type. Finally, here are the most relevant highlights from the release notes since 0.9.4. I hope this helps (and I'm very interested in hearing how it goes, of course :).

  1. 21

    Summary

    A number of important bugfixes & usability tweaks for wiki mail and the Plone/CMF skin, and preliminary optional Purple Numbers support (fine-grained linking).

    Upgrade notes

    Should be routine. Upgrading to this release is recommended.

  2. 20

    Summary

    Simpler page types, smarter message handling, auto subscription option; mail, skin and miscellaneous bugfixes; python 2.1 or greater now required.

    Upgrade notes

    Page types have been simplified and renamed (both the end-user and developer names) as mentioned below. If you have standard_page_type or allowed_page_types properties on your wiki folders, you should update them to the latest types (in the left column below):

    I have dropped python 1.5.2 compatibility as of this release; this allows us to use more up-to-date python 2.1 features and means zwiki 0.20 and later won't run on very old zope installations.

    The comment method's arguments have changed.

  3. 17

    Summary

    Simpler page ids, faster performance and better memory efficiency, new general-purpose page type including tracker and fit support, more robust parenting, skin improvements, preliminary stylesheet support, code cleanups, doctest no longer used.

    Upgrade notes

    If you have pages with punctuation in the names, or zwiki tracker issues, you'll need to change their id/name. See below.

    If you have a tracker in your wiki, you'll also need to install the latest IssueTracker/FilterIssues pages and add a new isIssue FieldIndex? to your catalog. Also, in a large wiki you may find changing issue descriptions is much slower than before. See below.

    issuedtml and stxprelinkdtmlhtml pages will be auto-upgraded to the new stxprelinkdtmlfitissuehtml type.

    The CMF install method in Extensions has been renamed to Install.py.

    Changes

    General

    • Simpler page ids

      Page ids are now always derived from the name (title). This improves performance, removes a source of confusion, but means pages can no longer have a totally different title and id (like tracker issues used to). Also, page ids no longer include punctuation, and fuzzy links now ignore punctuation.

      Pages with old-style ids should be renamed so that wiki links to them will work. You can upgrade these pages and update links throughout the wiki by visiting SOMEPAGEURL/upgradeAll. This may take a long time; you can watch progress in the debug log. It's safe to run this more than once. Alternately, you can visit SOMEPAGE/upgradeId to rename and relink a single page.

      Some incoming links may break due to url changes; having the zwiki standard_error_message installed will help.

    • Improved performance and memory efficiency

      Link rendering is faster due to the new ids and code refactoring. (Unscientific ab test: roughly a 4x speedup rendering a normal page and 20x for a long one.) Also, zwiki is no longer so eager to load all pages into the zodb cache. Certain operations will still trigger this (search, rename) but in general use, a zope serving large wikis should now use less memory. This may also help your performance and reduce "first page render" delay.

    • new/improved page lookup methods: pages, pageIds, pageNames, pageIdsStartingWith, pageNamesStartingWith, firstPageIdStartingWith, firstPageNameStartingWith, pageWithId, pageWithName, pageWithNameOrId, pageWithFuzzyName. Use these in your DTML code when possible as they will be optimized. pageWith* now return a correct acquisition wrapper (fixes IssueNo0472?). pageWithFuzzyName's ignore_case has no extra cost now and is always on. The argument is left in place for backwards compatibility for the moment. Also this may have been acquiring pages, fixed.
    • new general-purpose page type incorporating issue and fit support: stxprelinkdtmlfitissuehtml. stxprelinkdtmlhtml and issuedtml pages are auto-upgraded to this. This page type displays an issue properties form if the page name begins with IssueNo?. Also, any tables whose first cell begins with "fit." or "fittests." are run as fit tests at page view time. 0.11.0

    Upgrading notes

    See Regexps.py for notes on configuring international page names. When running large & extensively cataloged wikis, you might notice this version being more memory intensive than 0.10 (which itself may be more memory hungry than 0.9.9). This release should coexist with CMFWiki without problems. Otherwise the usual, see http://zwiki.org/TenMinuteZwikiUpgradeGuide & http://zwiki.org/HowToUpgradeZwiki for more.

  4. 10

    Summary

    Pre-rendering for better performance, new freeform page names and fuzzy linking, WikiForNow regulations support (beta), page renaming & deleting, UI enhancement & simplification, better upgradability, page templates support, i18n started, many bugfixes & minor enhancements.

    Upgrading notes

    This release has renamed page types and a new render-caching mechanism, to which pages are upgraded automatically; full-featured UI defaults which will be used if you delete your custom DTML methods; and one new and one renamed permission. See http://zwiki.org/TenMinuteZwikiUpgradeGuide & http://zwiki.org/HowToUpgradeZwiki for more.

    renamed permission: Zwiki: Recycle pages permission -> Zwiki: Delete pages added permission: Zwiki: Rename pages

  5. 9.9

    Focus: unit tests, wikimail enhancements, general fixes and a permissions rename. See main release notes below (rc1).

    • zwiki permissions renamed. Details:
                'Add ZWiki Pages' (no change)
                'Add ZWiki Webs' (no change)
                'Zwiki: Add comments to pages' (was Append to ZWiki Pages)
                'Zwiki: Change page types' (was Change ZWiki Page Types)
                'Zwiki: Edit pages' (was Change ZWiki Pages)
                'Zwiki: Reparent pages' (was Reparent ZWiki Pages)
                'Zwiki: Recycle pages' (was Send ZWiki Pages to Recycle Bin)
      
                Zwiki also uses zope's 'Add Documents, Images, and Files' (no change)
      
               Upgrade notes: you'll need to make a note of your zwiki
               permissions settings before upgrading and recreate them after this
               upgrade. You'll find all the new permissions at the bottom of the
               security page, aside from the Add permissions which are
               unchanged. Also you may have dtml which checks for the old
               permissions and needs to be updated. For example, the wiki
               templates refer to the permissions by name in
               standard_wiki_header, standard_wiki_footer and editform.
      

-Simon

WikiFolder? gone, breaking existing wiki sites --SimonMichael, 2003/08/02 21:40 GMT reply
Hi Fred.. thanks for the swift reality check to my "last-minute plone changes" gamble. I have no ideas right now, other than go back to 0.20 or try 0.21 with 0.20's CMF.py, CMFInit.py & Extensions/Install.py.

Wiki Folder gone, breaking existing wiki sites --SimonMichael, 2003/08/02 21:48 GMT reply
Opened #571 0.21 removal of Wiki Folder breaks existing CMF/Plone wikis with advice to downgrade long enough to move pages to an ordinary folder. Won't be doing much more on this for a while.

Dang it.

Wiki Folder gone, breaking existing wiki sites --SimonMichael, 2003/08/02 22:45 GMT reply
Fred has suggested a nice fix which should work (in cvs).

To cheer myself up, I've enabled wiki link colouring on this site.

zwiki WikiMail NG v0.1 --PieterB, 2003/08/03 17:33 GMT reply
I've created a snapshot of a wikimail procmail setup. See: http://gewis.nl/~pieterb/zwiki/wikimailng-v0.1.zip

It implements some of the Procmail things of WikiMailNG (most powerfull setup). It includes a procmailrc for zwiki and even a rudimentary test script.

It has support for: - procmail - spamassassin - filtering out duplicate messages - locking

Feedback is welcome,

Pieter PS zwiki seems to be down at the minute. wonder if this mail will be posted.

site reliability update --PieterB, 2003/08/03 17:42 GMT reply
On Sat, Aug 02, 2003 at 06:11:17PM +0000, SimonMichael wrote:

Bah.. sorry about the downtime. Something must be done. Quick review of status -

Maybe some other options are:

I think excluding the GoogleBot? until the zwiki is stable is a quick fix, but it would be nice if the site is properly indexed.

Pieter

-- If you are already in a hole, there's no use to continue digging.

Zwiki 0.21.1 bugfix release --Simon Michael, 2003/08/03 18:47 GMT reply
Changes:

More information: http://zwiki.org/ReleaseNotes , http://zwiki.org/KnownIssues , http://zwiki.org

Download: http://zwiki.org/releases/ZWiki-0.21.1.tgz (not yet available on zope.org due to upgrade)

Best wishes, --Simon

mailin threading? --Bob McElrath?, 2003/08/03 18:50 GMT reply
I just had a thought...

Is anyone working on any kind of threading/nesting model for the mailin?

I see that zwiki.org now has blog-like "articles" with comments (I'm still using 0.18 -- all this CMF/plone talk confused me), but the comments are all displayed linearly, and any thread is lost.

I ask because I was thinking about using mailin to communicate with collaborators using LatexWiki . However for long discussions, a single Latex error would prevent the whole page from rendering, and since when you're typing Latex in your mailer you can't immediately see the results, minor latex errors would be common. So would stx formatting errors for that matter, but stx can always render no matter what so it isn't as big of a deal... Separating messages into individual pages and displaying the thread tree would help (for me). Maybe I'll play with this when I have more time...

Zwiki 0.21.1 bugfix release --SimonMichael, 2003/08/03 19:15 GMT reply
I just slipstreamed a last-minute editform fix into the 0.21.1 release. Please download again if you grabbed it within the last half-hour.

mailin threading? --SimonMichael, 2003/08/03 19:38 GMT reply
Hi Bob - maybe quicker to enclose the latex rendering step in try:except:, so the page will always render.

I see you've updated this, nice. You might want to make clear it's a monkey-patch (ie simply install alongside Zwiki). Are you using it much ? Maybe when the selection of page types settles it would make sense to merge it with Zwiki ?

PS your recent changes and search seem to require authentication.

mailin threading? --Bob McElrath?, 2003/08/03 20:12 GMT reply
SimonMichael [zwiki-wiki@zwiki.org]? wrote:

Hi Bob - maybe quicker to enclose the latex rendering step in try:except:, so the page will always render.

Oh it uses try:except: and always renders but a single latex error will prevent the all latex on the page from rendering. Any mechanism to split the page into individual messages that could be rendered separately would help. (I render all latex at once for speed -- it's already O(seconds) per page and doing one equation at a time would make it O(N) in the number of equations...)

Besides threading is a nice feature for any discussion system. I was just curious about that...

Also since my last release I've added alpha channel transparency on the equation PNG's (so it looks fine on any background except black ;).

I see you've updated this, nice. You might want to make clear it's a monkey-patch (ie simply install alongside Zwiki). Are you using it much ? Maybe when the selection of page types settles it would make sense to merge it with Zwiki ?

I've never heard the term "monkey-patch" but I'm happy to swing in the rafters and eat bananas. It seems ZWiki itself is a monkey-patch -- is there a package system for Zope?

I'm not sure about merging it, LatexWiki also requires PIL, ghostscript, and LocalFS. I don't think the default ZWiki install would really want to turn it on, but I'm open to the idea...

Also now that you've merged to reST, I will have to do some updating...also the stx+LaTeX? syntax is not terribly well defined so should be updated with a more formal syntax (like reST) including escaping and such for the latex.

PS your recent changes and search seem to require authentication.

Hmm thanks! Now why would that be? You can load http://mcelrath.org/Notes/SearchPage but it won't let you search? Could it be that I have some pages not anonymously accessable and the search dtml tries to look at them? I'm using the default 0.18 SearchPage?.

Cheers, Bob McElrath? [Univ. of Wisconsin at Madison, Department of Physics]?

mailin threading? --PieterB, 2003/08/03 20:32 GMT reply
On Sun, Aug 03, 2003 at 08:15:26PM +0000, BobMcElrath wrote:

Any mechanism to split the page into individual messages that could be rendered separately would help.

You might be able to use an alternative to the current message seperation in unix mbox format. Something like: a Latex-header. For example:

LaTeX?: $y = x^2$
for a single line latex expressions that while be rendered seperately, or:

Begin-LaTeX?:
lot's of latex stuff inside here
e.g. multi-line End-LaTeX?:

PieterB

latexwiki, mailin threading --SimonMichael, 2003/08/03 21:27 GMT reply
Yours is a "monkey patch" because it dynamically patches an existing product (or zope itself) at startup. I've also seen these called "hotfixes".

No, we wouldn't try to enable latex support by default - but we could incorporate your latex-supportin' page type, which would at least make the "patch zwiki" step unnecessary. Also it might make it easier to keep it synced with the latest zwiki code - I'm guessing it's not compatible with latest releases ? Of course if you prefer to keep it as a separate add-on that has advantages too.

I see why you don't want to invoke latex too often. Even so, I'd rather have an error disable all latex diagrams than completely break the page. Also you'll be able to move the latex rendering to the pre-render stage for better performance, I imagine ? And perhaps add the fit/issue/message support recently added to most page types. Longer term, we could make latex support another of these optional stages common to all page types.

I'm interested in threaded display for sure; we preserve the necessary information now, it's just a matter of adding a new message renderer in Messages.py. Perhaps you could jam pipermail's code in there, to show a threaded index by default. I want a threaded-with-bodies display as well.

What is Zwiki doc --SimonMichael, 2003/08/03 21:37 GMT reply
I just attempted to answer this.. stashed it on ZwikiFeatures? for now.

Pending issue --ftour, 2003/08/03 23:51 GMT reply
Upgraded to 0.21.1. Now I have 7 consecutive radio-buttons labeled Pagetype under Format in editform:-)

Pending issue --SimonMichael, 2003/08/04 00:32 GMT reply
What if you remove editform.pt's lines 272 and 276 (containing i18n:translate) ? Customize this in portal_skins if it makes things easier. And, can you link the form here ? Or post the HTML source it's generating for those radio buttons.

permissions problem --SimonMichael, 2003/08/04 00:35 GMT reply
Bob - yes, SearchPage? (and RecentChanges?, unless using a catalog) tries to look in all pages and aren't smart enough to ignore the ones they don't have permission for.

Pending issue --ftour, 2003/08/04 01:18 GMT reply
I've re-customized editform and I don't see any more radio-buttons which is just as well for the time being as standard_page_type should be ok. Here's the offending html source anyway:

 <input class="noborder" type="radio"
                           name="type"
                           value="msgstxprelinkfitissuehtml"
                           id="msgstxprelinkfitissuehtml"
                           onfocus="formtooltip('format_help',1)"
                           onblur="formtooltip('format_help',0)"
                           checked="checked" />
                    <label for="msgstxprelinkfitissuehtml"
                           i18n:translate="msgstxprelinkfitissuehtml">pagetype</label> <br />

                    <input class="noborder" type="radio"
                           name="type"
                           value="msgstxprelinkdtmlfitissuehtml"
                           id="msgstxprelinkdtmlfitissuehtml"
                           onfocus="formtooltip('format_help',1)"
                           onblur="formtooltip('format_help',0)" />
                    <label for="msgstxprelinkdtmlfitissuehtml"
                           i18n:translate="msgstxprelinkdtmlfitissuehtml">pagetype</label> <br />

                    <input class="noborder" type="radio"
                           name="type"
                           value="msgrstprelinkfitissue"
                           id="msgrstprelinkfitissue"
                           onfocus="formtooltip('format_help',1)"
                           onblur="formtooltip('format_help',0)" />
                    <label for="msgrstprelinkfitissue"
                           i18n:translate="msgrstprelinkfitissue">pagetype</label> <br />

                    <input class="noborder" type="radio"
                           name="type"
                           value="msgwwmlprelinkfitissue"
                           id="msgwwmlprelinkfitissue"
                           onfocus="formtooltip('format_help',1)"
                           onblur="formtooltip('format_help',0)" />
                    <label for="msgwwmlprelinkfitissue"
                           i18n:translate="msgwwmlprelinkfitissue">pagetype</label> <br />

                    <input class="noborder" type="radio"
                           name="type" value="html"
                           id="html"
                           onfocus="formtooltip('format_help',1)"
                           onblur="formtooltip('format_help',0)" />
                    <label for="html" i18n:translate="html">pagetype</label> <br />

                    <input class="noborder" type="radio"
                           name="type" value="dtmlhtml"
                           id="dtmlhtml"
                           onfocus="formtooltip('format_help',1)"
                           onblur="formtooltip('format_help',0)" />
                    <label for="dtmlhtml"
                           i18n:translate="dtmlhtml">pagetype</label> <br />

                    <input class="noborder" type="radio"
                           name="type" value="plaintext"
                           id="plaintext"
                           onfocus="formtooltip('format_help',1)"
                           onblur="formtooltip('format_help',0)" />
                    <label for="plaintext"
                           i18n:translate="plaintext">pagetype</label> <br />

Re: FW: FW: Pre .20 commonplace template --Simon Michael, Mon, 04 Aug 2003 21:52:45 +0000 reply
John DeBruyn? writes:

Thanks for the roll back on page types.

All is well, including the plain instances of Zwiki and those running templates from Jordan, installed before and after 0.20, are all working fine.

Hurrah! Thanks for pursuing this John.

blog harvest --SimonMichael, Tue, 05 Aug 2003 17:28:20 +0000 reply
(surfaces from blogspace, via Dean's quote..)

Don't want to push zwiki too much.. but replied to that interesting Sam Ruby wiki backlash thread. Tried to conceal my smugness.

Good points expressed there, also a super-edifying post from Bill de hÓra. "The aim of you editing a wiki page is not to express your opinion, or to make point, or be renowned for either, it's to make that page the best it can be, right now.".

And woah, look at those sexy tooltips (translucent gray, at least in firebird).

Nice one from Phil Ringnalda: There is no they .

less quotable, more notable --DeanGoodmanson, Wed, 06 Aug 2003 19:53:31 +0000 reply
"We have a wiki now on the internal web with the issues list, resolutions for them, and so on. " - Anders Hejlsberg, the lead C# architect http://www.artima.com/intv/csdes.html

FrontPage --DeanGoodmanson, Wed, 06 Aug 2003 20:55:42 +0000 reply
Would setting the mailout_policy on FrontPage to edits help us cleanup graffiti faster?

FrontPage --SimonMichael, Thu, 07 Aug 2003 01:02:46 +0000 reply
I was thinking of this yesterday.. would like to mail out edits to incentivize us with wiki cleanup. What could we mail out that's more than comments, but less than every (minor) edit ? Every edit with a subject.. ? (no good, this is sticky now). The first edit made by a new editor.. ?

FrontPage --SimonMichael, Thu, 07 Aug 2003 01:07:41 +0000 reply
...every edit which has a different subject from the last ?

Of course, for total vandalism awareness you need to see every edit.

Well I know my mail setup can handle it.. after receiving 4000 mails from NooWiki the other day without problems (three cheers for IMAP). That Florian and his mega-scripts..

FrontPage -- Thu, 07 Aug 2003 03:10:54 +0000 reply

Of course, for total vandalism awareness you need to see every edit

I was primarily thinking of only the high traffic/visibility pages such as FrontPage, RecentChanges?, SearchPage?...

What could we mail out that's more than comments, but less than every (minor) edit ?
Possibilities..

  1. Daily Diff report. These pages changed yesterday. Here's the Yesterday vs. Today view.
  2. Add a "Minor Edit" checkbox to the edit page to suppress a mail-out (and potentially support a RecentMajorChanges? page) (I speculate a number of people avoid grammatical polish due to having there name in the spotlight. footprints=ownership, etc.)
  3. Spotlight a few pages that need work, do this every week or so. A volunteer list participant may not mind being assigned to go work on a page. In this case, perhaps every 2 weeks you'd post a list of names followed by 2-4 pages to work on for each name. (This could be done privately through email, subwiki, etc.) Participants could also collectively point out "broken window"/neglected pages for later assignment. This re-inforces "bite size tasks" while also giving extra license/confidence to refactor.
  4. changes? I thought he had 4000 pages! :-)

FrontPage --Simon Michael, Thu, 07 Aug 2003 16:22:52 +0000 reply

I was primarily thinking of only the high traffic/visibility pages such as FrontPage, RecentChanges?, SearchPage?...

Oh, good option. Except the mailout_policy property doesn't work on a page, we should change that.

Not that vandalism has been a problem for us, touch wood, and being high visibility we find problems on those pages relatively quickly.

1. Daily Diff report. These pages changed yesterday. Here's the Yesterday vs. Today view.

Yes that would be great. I was thinking "things I know how to do quickly".

I'm pretty sure I won't add a "minor edit" checkbox. The software should figure that out.

assignment. This re-inforces "bite size tasks" while also giving extra license/confidence to refactor.

Very good.. I also thought of us going through AllPages by letter, looking for pages to delete (etc.). I did the A's the other day.

Other ways to break things into bite-sized tasks ? Update one FAQ item per day.. do cleanup on one docs page (linked from ZWiki).. summarize old discussion on one page..

This is the kind of work I want to make more visible by mailing out edits. I suppose the simplest thing that could possibly work is just turn it on and see how long we can stick it.

FrontPage --DeanGoodmanson, Thu, 07 Aug 2003 22:36:39 +0000 reply

I'm pretty sure I won't add a "minor edit" checkbox. The software should figure that out.

Please elaborate. Is there a wiki out there that does this?

memory efficiency --Simon Michael, Fri, 08 Aug 2003 17:35:44 +0000 reply
These remarks apply to large wikis.

It would be a good thing if Zwiki/Zope required less memory, for scalability and reliability. Zope uses lots of memory when serving large wikis, because Zwiki tends to load up all pages into the zodb cache. (On this site the average cached page costs about 20K.) There's a separate cache for each zope thread.

Ideally it would load only the pages being accessed into cache. Current Zwiki is quite good in this respect, but I've found the following "expensive" operations which load up all pages:

Also, viewing a page is "semi-expensive" - it loads the page plus each page that it links to (to generate the last edited info in the link titles).

A user accessing these expensive ops occasionally shouldn't be a big deal; if the whole wiki is not cached, they'll just be slow. I surmise they are triggered more frequently when we're crawled by google though. And note that the zodb cache size that you configure is only a guideline; it appears that each zope thread will transiently grab as much memory as it needs to load all pages, plus any other objects needed, when doing one of these ops. If it can't, the operation fails with a memory error or zope hangs in a deadlock.

We can do better by relying more on the catalog, when present. We should optimize some or all of these to use catalog as backlinks and RecentChanges? do. Then Zwiki would rarely or never load all pages at once, and be more scalable.

site outage --Simon Michael, Fri, 08 Aug 2003 17:40:41 +0000 reply
Another big outage (10 hours) due to the ZopeOutOfMemoryKiller? failing to restart zope.

Rather than spend more time on that, I've disabled it and installed the AutoLance? product. AutoLance? doesn't monitor memory growth on freebsd, but it should restart when it detects a deadlock, which may amount to the same thing in practice. Let's see how this works.

FrontPage --Simon Michael, Fri, 08 Aug 2003 17:41:41 +0000 reply
Bill Seitz writes:

A possible downside: pretty much forces everyone to subscribe to the whole site. But that probably makes sense anyway, since the distinction between what happens in GeneralDiscussion vs other pages seems completely arbitrary to me.

It's sometimes a tough call, but I've mostly had a pretty clear idea of this.. it goes on GeneralDiscussion unless there's a good topic-specific page for it, or unless it really needs to reach everybody.

But since you've posted I feel this mental model breaking down. Oh dear.

memory efficiency --DeanGoodmanson, Fri, 08 Aug 2003 18:24:21 +0000 reply
Ahh...that explains why my page that lists RecentChanges? for a wiki and 8 sub-wiki's chews up so much RAM!:

 Cache size: ~71,000 objects.
 Target Size: 20,000

Think changing the Target size would make much difference?

(Everything's also cataloged)

memory efficiency --SimonMichael, Fri, 08 Aug 2003 18:29:04 +0000 reply
Aha. No I don't, because target size is only a soft target. But, I'd expect the RC from this site to be more efficient, using your catalog.

memory efficiency --SimonMichael, Fri, 08 Aug 2003 18:32:50 +0000 reply
PS - you see 71000 objects in your cache !? How many pages in your wikis ?

memory efficiency --DeanGoodmanson, Fri, 08 Aug 2003 18:43:11 +0000 reply

How many pages in your wikis ?

~1500 total, plus about 1000 SquishDot? messages

FrontPage --BillSeitz, Sat, 09 Aug 2003 03:02:05 +0000 reply
Simon sez: it goes on GeneralDiscussion unless there's a good topic-specific page for it

but the question is: when should one create a new "topic-specific" page? And how do people find out about it, so they can decide whether to subscribe to it? (e.g. you spun off a MemoryUsage page based on stuff that started here. But nobody just subscribing to GeneralDiscussion would know about it (until my note here).

Charset configuration via properties --Sven Kabelin, Sat, 09 Aug 2003 16:48:34 +0000 reply
I have pached the editformular.pt from:

 <head>
 <meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
       content="text/html;charset=iso-8859-1" />

to:

 <head tal:define="charset here/charset|string:iso-8859-1">
 <meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
       content="text/html;charset=iso-8859-1" tal:attributes="content string:text/html;;charset=${charset}" />

Why can't make with the regular ZWiki? Make this code problems?

how to use this thing --Simon Michael, Sat, 09 Aug 2003 19:45:44 +0000 reply
Hail fellow wiki-mail pioneers.

but the question is: when should one create a new "topic-specific" page? And how do people find out about it, so they can decide whether to subscribe to it? (e.g. you spun off a MemoryUsage page based on stuff that started here. But nobody just subscribing to GeneralDiscussion would know about it (until my note here).

I don't know. Got some ideas ? :)

MemoryUsage was a document-mode page that seemed called for.. I'd have probably mentioned it on GD eventually, especially if it developed significant new content. I knew whole-wiki subscribers and RecentChanges? watchers would already know about it.

The "memory efficiency" discussion that was in progress here jumped the tracks and spread to the new page.. I have mixed feelings about that. On the one hand it's nice to keep discussion here where it's most visible to all subscribers, and it's not turning all document-mode pages into long rambling crufty discussion archives. On the other hand, putting it on the discussion page keeps everything in one place for future visitors.

Charset configuration via properties --Simon Michael, Sat, 09 Aug 2003 19:47:54 +0000 reply
Hi.. can you say more ? What does this achieve ?

how to use this thing --Simon Michael, Sat, 09 Aug 2003 20:29:18 +0000 reply
Simon Michael writes:

On the other hand, putting it on the discussion page keeps everything in one place for future visitors.

Putting it on the specific topic page, I meant. A variant of this is putting it on a separate TopicDiscussion? page, just one click away. Tidy, but also sort of the worst of both worlds in a way.

how to use this thing --SimonMichael, Sat, 09 Aug 2003 20:32:39 +0000 reply
PS one more thing - I do think whole-wiki subscription is the way to go when one wants to be fully involved with a wiki. People who subscribe to individual pages, GeneralDiscussion included, are indicating that they don't want to hear about goings-on elsewhere.

Charset configuration via properties --Sven Kabelin, Sun, 10 Aug 2003 13:33:41 +0000 reply
Admin can set the content-type via folder property. Create a property "charset" value "UTF-8" now it takes and display UTF-8 content. The problem is you must do this of the creation time of your zwiki. You change the content-type after content is inserted, maybe content will not display correctly.

StructuredText code tag --DeanGoodmanson, Mon, 11 Aug 2003 20:29:54 +0000 reply
StructuredText's '' tag markup (single apostrophes) is working out to be a handy mechanism for:

  • Escaping StructuredText, Html, all while...
  • Escaping wiki names

So between ''this'' and :: that most of my cases are covered, with the remaining usually ending in in noting long portions of C style code. (This statement requests no action. I noticed I had a semi-cohesive, potentially useful thought, so passing it along.)

StructuredText code tag --DeanGoodmanson, Mon, 11 Aug 2003 20:33:21 +0000 reply
Heh. As you can see, I haven't mastered it yet....

FrontPage => CSS-ing zWiki -- Tue, 12 Aug 2003 05:55:32 +0000 reply
Sorry for the lagtime in replying, Dean! I wanted to check out the default style sheet and give it some thought. But I see there isn't a default style sheet! =}

I think the way to go would be to first move all the formatting into a simple, plain vanilla default style sheet, with divs replacing tables to the extent possible. This would of course need to be coordinated with work on the zwiki skins for Plone. I'd be curious what Limi's thoughts on this would be.

Jordan's done an impressive job of CSS-ing the existing code for the commonplacebook skin, which I see is now working w/the current version of zwiki. Using classes on tables might be an interim step, w/his code (design simplified) as a starting point? But it might make more sense to untable the code at the same time. I'll post specific commments to StyleSheets (maybe this whole thing should have been posted there?).

Part of the reason I've been tentative about this is that I don't know what discussion there's been of CSS. Is the reason it hasn't been done simply that no CSS freaks have stepped forward? Or, is it something else?

I'd like to help but I'm getting crunched with work for fall so don't want to offer too much. Still, I think it's important (and I am a CSS freak!) A little history and perspective, including Limi's and Jordan's thoughts on this, would be great.

LaT

p.s. Sorry for bouncing mail over the weekend, Simon. My domain renewal had, er, a hiccup. =}

Zwiki 0.21.1 bugfix release -- Tue, 12 Aug 2003 08:27:36 +0000 reply

drop confusing allowed_page_types option

Simon, I didn't follow your discussion with John closely enough to know what this means, exactly. Does the bit on changing page types in the FAQ need to be changed?

Also, in my existing wiki's, w/the allowed_page_types I added, are fine. When I dropped in a new wiki to investigate, the default front page didn't render. When I edited it, I saw this (now familiar) message: "Warning: this page's current type (stxprelinkhtml) is not one of the allowed types for this wiki." Resaved and it was fine.

LaT

Zwiki 0.21.1 bugfix release --laura trippi, Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:17:50 +0000 reply

When I dropped in a new wiki to investigate, the default front page didn't render.

I neglected to mention I just upgraded to 0.21.1. =}

LaT

how to use this thing --laura trippi, Tue, 12 Aug 2003 10:49:04 +0000 reply
The FrontPage/how to use this thing discussion is great! I especially enjoyed this part:

> It's sometimes a tough call, but I've mostly had a pretty > clear idea of this.. it goes on GeneralDiscussion unless > there's a good topic-specific page for it, or unless it > really needs to reach everybody.

> But since you've posted I feel this mental model breaking > down. Oh dear.

I really like that "oh dear"! =}

I've just reactivated my whole-wiki subscription. And I think your instinct is right, Simon, when you say:

> I do think whole-wiki subscription is the way to go when one > wants to be fully involved with a wiki.

The whole-wiki list provides nicely tiered options already: renames & deletes, IssueTracker, and everything else. So, is there really a need to add anything to the mail out? Or maybe that's what you're trying to implement in wikimail itself? (Realizes she's confused.) Oh dear! =D

In any case, maybe it's more a matter of how we're all using GD, WikiMail, and the rest of zwiki.org? Has the mailing list ease of use for development sort of swamped the use of the site for other purposes? Since my email sub to GD was down for a couple days, trying to digest this discussion has taken a lot of time. I've been scanning up and down GD for the past ... hour? 2 hours? to try to get clear on who said what and make sense of the discussion.

Maybe too much activity is now centralized on GD for people not following the list on a daily basis. And also for archiving, documenting, and recording. Sure, the record is there, but who's going to weed through it? It's not readily refactorable.

I hate to say it because it's pretty daunting, but I think a reorg of the site to bring out the existing content would help: clustering pages by adding manual index pages (roadmaps but I think that term's unclear) and establishing conventions for using wiki categories or keywords (er, not to the extent I was writing about a month or so in my weblog, though!).

Also, and I feel badly even mentioning this, but I think it's a factor: w/the site so slow to respond, it kind of takes the wiki out of zwiki, if you know what I mean. Wiki's are about bouncing around and adding comments/editing pages fast. If you have to wait, well, why bother? That just drives people back to using the GD mailing list that much more.

I don't know if this helpful, or where/how to suggest getting started, but ... that's how I experience it. It's really dizzying coming in from outside. Or just jumping back in when you've been away.

Maybe a development pause could be scheduled to concentrate for a week on a site-wide reorg? And/or start by archiving the existing zwiki.org (as a subzwiki?) and pull up only those pages that are worth spending time on now? In addition to manual index pages and a few keywords, some conventions for regularly harvesting comments from GD to their appropraite pages?

Thanks, Simon, for starting the discussion!

LaT

p.s. Also, is there a project roadmap anywhere? That would also help newcomers make sense of what's going on.

reduce our page count ? demolition needed --Simon Michael, Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:40:39 +0000 reply
(and good morning all).

I think we need (a) zwiki's memory usage optimized, (b) AutoLance? adapted to work properly on freebsd. What about (c) reducing the zwiki.org page count to 1500 or less ? A short-term fix, but would help validate the MemoryUsage theory, which claims we can run ~1500, maybe fewer, pages here without memory errors. We are currently at 1756 pages - zwiki.org's high water mark (but for the first time, not Zwiki's - extremos like Bill are moving ahead and stealing the glory.. :).

It would also improve the quality of our content. I presume we can get below 1500 without losing anything valuable. Could we get down to 1000 ? FYI WikiWikiWeb once considered setting a fixed limit on the number of pages, to promote refinement over endless growth.

If you agree, please help by going through one of the letters on AllPages, then announce it here so we don't overlap too much. I've made a first pass through the A's already.

What should we delete ? Test and junk pages. Personal pages with no content ? Redundant pages or low-value pages, after saving anything useful, would be great - but these take a little longer.

outage, adjustment --Simon Michael, Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:05:49 +0000 reply
Found the site returning "The object at http://zwiki.org/zwiki has an empty or missing docstring" for everything this morning (showing DisconnectedError and MemoryError in the event log). Added this symptom to SiteReliability. Zope had grown as large as possible but was not failing badly enough to get restarted. To prevent this I've turned on the ZopeOutOfMemoryKiller? again. Trying a slightly higher process size limit than before (103000).

reduce our page count ? demolition needed --BillSeitz, Tue, 12 Aug 2003 18:34:16 +0000 reply
Might a more macro rethinking make sense:

  • move GD archive pages (which are probably the longest pages in the site) to a subfolder (and maybe rely on Google more for searching them)
    • move closed Issue pages to subfolder (Google again)
  • move most discussions completely out of Wiki and just use email list? (static archive, Google again)
  • focus on refactoring biggest pages
  • focus on refactoring/deleting oldest pages (maybe by createDate, maybe by last_edit)

DifferencesFromClassicWiki --DeanGoodmanson, Tue, 12 Aug 2003 20:28:47 +0000 reply
I think I may have been the one that removed it previously, out of confusion as to why it was on that page.

DifferencesFromClassicWiki --SimonMichael, Tue, 12 Aug 2003 21:25:07 +0000 reply
Eh.. ? If you mean the :img: tag I just added.. I was just trying it out on a page where I knew there was an image. (Why is there an image there ? No idea, but I'm always happy to find it :)

Search comments --DeanGoodmanson, Tue, 12 Aug 2003 21:41:10 +0000 reply
Has anyone taken a stab at writing the SearchPage? in Python? I'd really like to include some context (ie. html-escaped text if 50 char's before and after first hit), but a python instead of dtml approach would be much simpler (for me.)

I was overwhelmed with dtml-anxiety when wanting to do a quick mod of AllPages in order to add a RemoteWikiLink? to itself for the purpose of filtering down the pages var to 1 item. (whew!) Then a remote link would be something like /AllPages?page= , for an AllPages:D directive to only pull the "D" pages into memory.

(I klunked twice when cleaning out some of my personal junk pages and referencing them through contents.)

Zwiki goes live on zope.org, plone.org --Simon Michael, Tue, 12 Aug 2003 22:06:22 +0000 reply
You may have noticed that

  • Zwiki (0.21.0cvs) is in place on the new http://zope.org (albeit with skin breakage which I've just posted a bug report for)
  • and Zwiki (0.22.0cvs) has just gone live on http://plone.org , with the latest zwiki_plone skin

This is kind of a big deal, at least for me: I feel as if Zwiki has broken through to the mainstream, at last. A lot of work, over a period of years, by a large number of people, including the WikiForNow, CMFWiki and Plone developers, and some well-targeted funding of development tasks, has made this possible. Thank you all, and congratulations us! :

  _                          _     _ _ 
 | |__  _   _ _ __ _ __ __ _| |__ | | |
 | '_ \| | | | '__| '__/ _` | '_ \| | |
 | | | | |_| | |  | | | (_| | | | |_|_|
 |_| |_|\__,_|_|  |_|  \__,_|_| |_(_|_)

       ___
    .-     \
   /   _    \
  |  /   \   \
   \|     \   \
    \      \   \
     \      \   \
      \     _\   \
       \  /       \
        \|         |
         \  ~      |
          \.__ ~   \
              \     \
               \     \
                \     \
                 \ ._=_\
                  \/    >
                   ` \\\
                  .  \\\\   .
                 .    |||| .   .
                _________________
               <_________________>
                \ _________o___ /
                  \    o  .   /
                    \   .   /
                      \   /
                       | |
                       | |
                       | |
                       | |
                    ___| |___
                 _--         --_
                   -----------

I'll cc the zope list.. after it's been running for a bit. I'm no loon. :)

Best wishes -Simon

Re: Zwiki goes live on zope.org, plone.org --laura trippi, Wed, 13 Aug 2003 00:27:06 +0000 reply
Congratulations, Simon!!! And everyone! This is great, huge, fantastic!

Not to copycat but, since this is a celebration thread:

                                        ...
                                     {@} * {@}
                                  {@} * {@} * {@}
                                : * {@} * {@} * .;
                               {@} * {@} * {@} * {@}
                                * ; * ; {@} * ; * :
                                 ;\ \ \ \| /  / /;
                                    \\ \ Y/ / /
                                     `_\ |/ _'
                                     / \\Y// \
                                    ( ,-}={-, )
                                     \_//((\_/
                                      //))(\
                                       (/  ))
                                          ((
          valkyrie                         \)

I'll cc the zope list.. after it's been running for a bit. I'm no loon. :)

Ah, but I am (a loon, that is). So is it OK w/you, Simon, if I blog this event? Or would you prefer me to wait till any wrinkles get ironed out?

LaT

-- Andreas Freise, Ascii Art Dictionary http://www.ascii-art.de/ascii/def/flowers.txt

Re: Zwiki goes live on zope.org, plone.org --SimonMichael, Wed, 13 Aug 2003 02:22:28 +0000 reply
Thanks Laura! By all means, go ahead.

FAQ updates --Simon Michael, Wed, 13 Aug 2003 15:12:12 +0000 reply
I'm gradually rehabilitating these faqs. Latest is http://zwiki.org/FAQ#What%20are%20these%20permissions%20you%20speak%20of?

I removed the blank line between questions and answers for compactness and readability.. but it seems to be creeping back again.

Thanks --Simon Michael, Wed, 13 Aug 2003 15:26:06 +0000 reply
zwiki-wiki@zwiki.org (DeanGoodmanson) writes:

Although there are more formal ways of supporting Zwiki, Plone and Open Source development (Sponsorship, etc.)..

There are times when I'd prefer to thank the developers through small, unexpectant tokens for support. Thus, this is a (repeated) suggestion that folks like Simon and other ZwikiContributors create and post an Amazon (or similar, http://www.thinkgeek.com/brain/wishes.cgi ) wishlist.

Dean - I appreciate you bringing this up, again! :) Thank you very much.

I have not done this partly because.. I like the absence of pushy donate buttons, and also because I've had vague notions of making it possible for actual money to flow to myself and others.. the buy-simon-a-faster-laptop fund.. grandiose micropayment schemes.. etc. But I'm not sure how to do this, or if it will affect the spirit of the project.

Perhaps time to do the simplest thing that could possibly work. I'll experiment on SimonMichael.

some ZMI ControlPanel? confusion --Simon Michael, Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:29:38 +0000 reply
zwiki-wiki@zwiki.org (FlorianKonnertz) writes:

made some backups of ZWiki dir with names like ZWiki-0.18 etc. in the products folder and they (of course) were shown in CP. But a time ago i went moving them to a new dir in lib/python/away-products so they shouldnt disturb any more, but they still kept showing up in CP. So i deleted them today in the ZMI->CP. Now one single ZWiki product ist there.

Hi Florian - that's correct. You should have only one copy of the zwiki code in the Products directory. I would always keep the ZWiki directory name to avoid confusion.

Why isnt it marked as broken and the error shown when "it IS broken" as seen from above described errors??

Don't know.. if you click on the product's traceback tab (manage_traceback) and there's no error, then it isn't broken as far as zope is concerned. 0.21.0 dropped Wiki Folder support, which was fixed in 0.21.1. Perhaps that explains it.

... --Simon Michael, Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:32:23 +0000 reply

Hey, that worked. Thanks, ftour! I'm guessing it was the fact my MailHost was named something other than MailHost. It Didn't catch me

Yes. Should that change ? Catalog lookup is much more flexible, unnecessarily so I thought.

zwiki WikiMail NG v0.1 --Simon Michael, Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:33:33 +0000 reply
PieterB writes:

I've created a snapshot of a wikimail procmail setup. See: http://gewis.nl/~pieterb/zwiki/wikimailng-v0.1.zip

Cool Pieter. I haven't had a chance to look at this yet, anyone else ?

Zwiki 0.21.1 bugfix release --Simon Michael, Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:34:31 +0000 reply
Laura writes:

drop confusing allowed_page_types option

Simon, I didn't follow your discussion with John closely enough to know what this means, exactly. Does the bit on changing page types in the FAQ need to be changed?

Yes, we should be able to simplify. I've erased this stuff from my brain unfortunately.. let's see.. yes.

  • 0.19 introduced the allowed_page_types property (a list of zwiki page types) to control the list of page types offered in the edit form, and to disable setting of any page types not on the list (eg DTML types).
  • 0.21 dropped this option, since it was such a pain in the neck with legacy skins, upgrades etc.
  • 0.22 will bring it back, but purely as a way of limiting the list of page types in the edit form. It won't restrict setting of page types or give warnings. For controlling DTML the no_dtml property is now supported - if this property can be acquired (it's value doesn't matter), DTML is disabled.

STX, don't you dare mess with those numbers..

page didn't render. When I edited it, I saw this (now familiar) message: "Warning: this page's current type (stxprelinkhtml) is not one of the allowed types for this wiki." Resaved and it was fine.

I assume you have a customized editform template somewhere; this warning should be gone from 0.21.1's skins.

other problems resolved ? --SimonMichael, Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:39:15 +0000 reply
By the way Laura - you were stuck with some permission problems (?) as I remember - any luck with those ?

wiki mail manouevers, another server adjustment --SimonMichael, Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:58:58 +0000 reply
What happens when you send mail to zwiki.org but zope is restarting at the time ? Because of our simple (dumb) mail setup, the mail is bounced. So if you're a page subscriber sending to zwiki-wiki@zwiki.org, you'll get the bounce and noone will see your message. If you're a whole-wiki subscriber sending to zwiki@zwiki.org, other list subscribers will see your message but it won't appear on the wiki or be forwarded to page subscribers.

In the latter case, which happens to me a lot lately, I'll resend, preserving the original message ID (I've found S D r does this in emacs) and this time direct to the wiki at zwiki-wiki@zwiki.org (which I can do because I'm also a page subscriber). What does this accomplish ? The mail gets to the wiki and the page subscribers without creating a duplicate for whole-wiki subscribers.

In case you were wondering. I'm not suggesting anyone should have to do or understand the above. Disregard it. But I was doing this and still couldn't get mails into the wiki - the damn thing is falling over all the time. This is no good. So for the time being it is now running just one (1) thread. This means the site may sometimes feel much slower, as it processes each request one at a time, first come first served. On the other hand it should stay up and mail should work a lot better.

Charset configuration via properties --Simon Michael, Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:11:10 +0000 reply
zwiki-wiki@zwiki.org (Sven Kabelin) writes:

Admin can set the content-type via folder property. Create a property "charset" value "UTF-8" now it takes and display UTF-8 content. The problem is you must do this of the creation time of your zwiki. You change the content-type after content is inserted, maybe content will not display correctly.

I see - thanks. Sounds good.. unless or until there is some more standard way of doing this in CMF/Plone/Zope 2.7..

Zwiki 0.21.1: page types --laura trippi, Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:28:51 +0000 reply

- 0.22 will bring it back, but purely as a way of limiting the list of page types in the edit form.

Okie, I'm not altogether following this but since I wrote up the earlier procedure (for the FAQ), I feel responsible for the doc. Maybe I'll wait to revise it till 0.22 comes out and the approach stablizes.

page didn't render. When I edited it, I saw this (now familiar) message: "Warning: this page's current type (stxprelinkhtml) is not one of the allowed types for this wiki." Resaved and it was fine.

I assume you have a customized editform template somewhere; this warning should be gone from 0.21.1's skins.

Er, no, I haven't customized the edit form. Only the wikipage ZPT and not on the file system. Even there, I haven't gone into the wiki engine code, except for one search/replace changing the background color of headers/footers. The above behavior was on a new zwikiweb dropped in to investigate the page types.

If I cleaned up my notes on customization, it might be easier to make that out! Well, one step at a time. =}

LaT

FrontPage, GeneralDiscussion cleanup --SimonMichael, Thu, 14 Aug 2003 01:56:41 +0000 reply
For a change, I've made the front page a normal, uncomplicated wiki page. Ah!! Isn't that better ?

The server has been running slowly but nice and steadily for five hours. Nice to have a sanity check.

other problems resolved: permissions --laura trippi, Thu, 14 Aug 2003 01:58:23 +0000 reply
Oh, thanks for asking! Yes and no: I got it working more or less the way I wanted but in the meantime began to grasp the security issues with allowing DTML. So, I need to rethink the basic approach I've taken and possibly drop the DTML. I'd like to switch to reST!

Meanwhile, two questions: (from default front page for new wikis):

  • "make the wiki folder's owner a low-privileged user": would I, for example, create a dummy user w/the role of "anonymous"?
  • "set the standard_page_type folder property to a non-DTML page type": where is this property? It doesn't appear on the property tab for wiki folders. I've searched the site, though briefly, and am still unclear.

Site org note: should these questions have been posted to BasicFrontPage? That way, answers could be easily refactored into a revised version. I'm just not clear still about the protocols.

thanks,

LaT

other problems resolved: permissions --SimonMichael, Thu, 14 Aug 2003 02:31:04 +0000 reply

"make the wiki folder's owner a low-privileged user": would I, for example, create a dummy user w/the role of "anonymous"?

Right.. then IIRC there's a sort of jig you do in the ZMI - while logged in as that user you "take ownership" of the folder. It's a bit inconvenient.

"set the standard_page_type folder property to a non-DTML page type": where is this property? It doesn't appear on the property tab for wiki folders.

Right. Because zwiki uses standard zope folders, zwiki properties usually aren't there to begin with; you have to add them when you need them. QuickReference lists the property names and types (string, boolean, or lines).

Site org note: should these questions have been posted to BasicFrontPage?

Another of those tough calls. :) I liked it here, because I saw it quicker, the discussion can spread out without becoming off-topic, and BasicFrontPage is one of those pages that I use as master copy for the defaults in the software.

from laura's blog --SimonMichael, Thu, 14 Aug 2003 02:55:33 +0000 reply
Laura had some nice things to say at zope, unfurl your wikis (indefatigable! :)

Also, check out GateKeepersOfGunzip? . I remember coming across this once. I still don't know what it means, but it's beautiful. :) Thanks Laura.

from laura's blog --SimonMichael, Thu, 14 Aug 2003 03:00:40 +0000 reply
Correction: I know just what it means, as you will if you delve into zope.. just not with all of my brain at once. Delightful.

zope.org >:( --SimonMichael, Thu, 14 Aug 2003 03:06:26 +0000 reply
Just to leaven the sweetness and light.. :)

There are a bunch of problems with the zwiki installation there which make me reluctant to forward that announcement widely. I've set up a wiki page at http://zope.org/Members/simon with a link to some open issues. Nothing that can't be fixed easily.. I'm just afraid things are not going move very quickly there. Think positive, think positive.

how to use this thing --Simon Michael, Thu, 14 Aug 2003 04:21:26 +0000 reply
Laura wrote:

The whole-wiki list provides nicely tiered options already: renames & deletes, IssueTracker, and everything else.

Are those the mailman topics which I set up a while back ? I don't think those work.

Also, and I feel badly even mentioning this, but I think it's a factor: w/the site so slow to respond, it kind of takes the wiki out of zwiki, if you know what I mean. Wiki's are about bouncing around and adding comments/editing pages fast. If you have to wait, well,

Agreed.

The MemoryUsage optimizations, when they come, should have the effect of making browsing, editing small pages, reparenting/renaming/deleting etc. more consistently quick.

I think changing large pages is going to remain quite slow for a while alas. It just takes a long time to apply STX or RST formatting to a big chunk of text - those packages have never been optimized. Just possibly we might be able to avoid reformatting the whole page when adding a comment.

p.s. Also, is there a project roadmap anywhere? That would also help newcomers make sense of what's going on.

FrontPage, ZWiki, ZwikiDevelopment?..

reduce our page count ? demolition needed --Simon Michael, Thu, 14 Aug 2003 04:30:45 +0000 reply
BillSeitz wrote: (more good refactoring thoughts)

Archiving old pages out-of-wiki, eg in a subwiki, makes sense at some point.. not yet, I'd hoped.

I was thinking of the number of pages as the main problem.. but yes, it could be that the big pages are having a disproportionate impact. Would be interesting to see a list sorted by page size.

And now I am really out of here.

reStructuredText notes --DeanGoodmanson, Thu, 14 Aug 2003 17:53:11 +0000 reply
I've found the "raw" "directive in reSt"http://docutils.sourceforge.net/spec/rst/directives.html#raw-data-pass-through to be a bit helpful in attempting reStructuredText

Examples at RSTTests (<--- Should that WikiLink be colorized?)

That might be a way to help ease the transition, and certainly allow spot for extensive add-in's such as LatexWiki, etc.

wikimail formatting --laura trippi, Thu, 14 Aug 2003 21:25:14 +0000 reply
Is this an issue or just ... sheesh?! =}

From a comment added via comments to ZwikiAndPlone, via email, the first and last list items smear together w/the preceding/following paragraphs. It works fine on the page.

Via email:

At Plone's documentation wiki: - HowToAddWiki? => zwiki.org FrontPage

  • plone_products w : nothing At zwiki.org : ZwikiAndPlone => [Chapter 13: Plone and CMF]? : says to use an install script. Are these the most current and complete install instructions?

Entered in the comments box as:

At Plone's documentation wiki:

At zwiki.org : ZwikiAndPlone => [Chapter 13: Plone and CMF]? : says to use an install script. Are these the most current and complete install instructions?

--LaT

reStructuredText notes --SimonMichael, Thu, 14 Aug 2003 23:49:26 +0000 reply
You said it, about the "strict old aunt". But there's a raw directive ? Cool.

I'd like to be able to turn off the RST warnings.

Yes that RSTTests link is gray, the default colour of wishlist issues.

FYI --SimonMichael, Fri, 15 Aug 2003 00:10:46 +0000 reply
Yes, it's Zwiki coloring the wiki links according to their target's issue colour, if any. Since recently but this failed to appear in the ChangeLog? somehow, I don't know how to keep it consistent when working in different CVS branches.

Fuelled by failure to find some simple docs and a good IRC rant: an experimental ZopeBookMirror?. I'm quite pleased with how this is working out.

No restarts or memory errors since going to one thread yesterday. (I restarted it myself to install new code). I'm finding the site zippier, since the one thread can keep all pages loaded in cache and there's usually not much concurrent activity to cause delays.

MemoryUsage has some new data on a big, old zwiki (handhelds.org) that's somehow running much faster and using much less memory than this one.

Thoughts on the insert method? --DeanGoodmanson, Fri, 15 Aug 2003 20:37:01 +0000 reply
#577 Insert page method

Especially interested in ideas on how it could be used. (Justification through use cases. :-))

Thoughts on the insert method? --SimonMichael, Fri, 15 Aug 2003 22:12:58 +0000 reply
I think it's good.. when I tried to implement this, I could find no good answer to "where do you put the form ?" and gave up.

Thoughts on the insert method? --DeanGoodmanson, Fri, 15 Aug 2003 22:39:38 +0000 reply

when I tried to implement this, I could find no good answer to "where do you put the form ?" and gave up.

I don't think there are enough uses to justify a "prepend" checkbox on the zwiki site. I'll list some of the specifics on my utility views this weekend. (I'm looking forward to the code and discussions on renderings based on new comment header, and Bill's blogging comments)

reStructuredText notes --DeanGoodmanson, Fri, 15 Aug 2003 22:42:44 +0000 reply

I'd like to be able to turn off the RST warnings.

When I asked privately about the raw/in-line html to a regular rest list member, I was told to send it to the list as they didn't have time. Apparently my question wasn't THAT redundant, and I didn't need to ask but noticed the answer in regards to someone asking about math markup. I'm sure you can word the question better than I, so if you'll post it, I (who am subscribed) will watch for the answer.

http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/docutils-users , docutils-users@lists.sourceforge.net

speedups --SimonMichael, Sat, 16 Aug 2003 00:47:35 +0000 reply
The expensive operations noted on MemoryUsage now use the catalog if possible. You should find renaming, mail-in, contents and search faster. Note the search is no longer case and whitespace-sensitive - it's a standard ZCatalog TextIndex? search. (I tried ZCTextIndex? and TextIndexNG2? but had to give up - sorry for the downtime).

So with a suitable catalog, large wikis should now run happily with a much smaller memory footprint. Except for all those DTML hacks . Nevertheless I've gone back to two threads just to see how we do now.

speedups --SimonMichael, Sat, 16 Aug 2003 00:48:05 +0000 reply
PS and the link titles (tooltips) are gone. Let me know if you miss them.

speedups --SimonMichael, Sat, 16 Aug 2003 02:09:46 +0000 reply

gone back to two threads just to see how we do now.

No good, stick with one for now.

what wikipedia's up to --Simon Michael, Sun, 17 Aug 2003 20:15:25 +0000 reply
The wikipedians hang out on wikitech-l ( gmane.science.linguistics.wikipedia.technical ). An interesting place for wiki engine hackers.

Brion Vibber wrote last month:

We've really got to work on stabilizing the latest fun fun changes... and we can start to look at the boring stuff that needs to get done.

Stuff that's maybe not a sexy new Table of Contents or Auto-Generated Maps or Cool New Language Support or Skin That Doesn't Scare People Away, but that really needs to get done to keep the wiki running. Optimization, fixes for race conditions, minor but continuous usability problems. The stuff no one wants to touch. :)

If something strikes your fancy, please oh please claim one of these for your own:

http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_tasks

deletions, mailout change --SimonMichael, Mon, 18 Aug 2003 00:33:45 +0000 reply
Seeking to further improve the signal level of mail from a zwiki, I've stopped sending out page deletions and page renames by default. Although these were handy for monitoring activity on zwiki.org, I think they belong with the non-default "edits" mailout policy. Let's see how it works.

I thought of a second argument for this later, I wonder if you agree: I think mailing these out discourages cleanup and promote inertia, because every deletion notification invites reaction from everyone, rather than people who have actually used the page, and there's a tendency to build endlessly but resist destruction, when in fact I think we need to promote more creative destruction. In most cases you'll look at that page a year later and realize it really wasn't worth keeping after all.

This may vary according to a wiki's general level of consensus and quality of edits. In a more diverse/"hostile" environment, you may need the wiki to be more verbose. Possibly I'm extra comfortable with this idea because the deletions are all mine right now. :) (is anyone else able to delete pages ? Laura couldn't rename, for some reason).

As it happens, after this I went on a roll and deleted 100 pages (B to M). These were test and low-content pages and some which I merged elsewhere. Visible in RecycleBin? for now.

deletions, mailout change --SimonMichael, Mon, 18 Aug 2003 02:35:57 +0000 reply
More deletions, and WikiBadges rehabilitated. Also I am removing Page Maintainers badges as I find them, none of those pages have been touched in months.

Re: what wikipedia's up to PLUS me --laura trippi, Mon, 18 Aug 2003 04:23:53 +0000 reply

>We've really got to work on stabilizing the latest fun fun changes... and we can start to look at the boring stuff that needs to get done.

Seems to be going around! =}

At the Pie/Echo/Atom wiki, after the recent blow out over wiki chaos and confusion, they've embarked on a major clean up, w/a very nice page on protocols for tending wikis:

http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/ThreadModeAndRefactorOk

I'll try to clean up the WikiMailAtZwiki? page this week and tidy up what I can quickly re: StyleSheets doc. But beyond that, I'm afraid I need to extricate myself and concentrate on other things. ={

My teaching load this fall is pretty heavy, and I also need to work on publishing as defined, you know, by tenure committees (yuk!).

Oh, I may also work a bit on the doc re: installing zwiki for plone if I find something helpful I can do while I'm sorting it out for myself.

LaT

comments on Delete Me's --DeanGoodmanson, Tue, 19 Aug 2003 14:34:54 +0000 reply
after quickly reading through the digest and latest set of edits..

My vote is to go ahead and delete most of the pages you've questioned for delete.

What it does bring to mind is that I would like examples of the major iterations of those pages archived. I'm particularly interested in: MultipPageFaq?, SinglePageFaq?, ReSTFaq?, RecentChangesAsTable?, RecentChangesByTime?, RecentChangesWithExcerpt?.

wikimail formatting --laura trippi, Thu, 14 Aug 2003 21:25:14 +0000 reply
Is this an issue or just ... sheesh?! =}

From a comment added via comments to ZwikiAndPlone, via email, the first and last list items smear together w/the preceding/following paragraphs. It works fine on the page.

Via email:

At Plone's documentation wiki: - HowToAddWiki? => zwiki.org FrontPage

  • plone_products w : nothing At zwiki.org : ZwikiAndPlone => [Chapter 13: Plone and CMF]? : says to use an install script. Are these the most current and complete install instructions?

Entered in the comments box as:

At Plone's documentation wiki:

At zwiki.org : ZwikiAndPlone => [Chapter 13: Plone and CMF]? : says to use an install script. Are these the most current and complete install instructions?

--LaT

reStructuredText notes --SimonMichael, Thu, 14 Aug 2003 23:49:26 +0000 reply
You said it, about the "strict old aunt". But there's a raw directive ? Cool.

I'd like to be able to turn off the RST warnings.

Yes that RSTTests link is gray, the default colour of wishlist issues.

FYI --SimonMichael, Fri, 15 Aug 2003 00:10:46 +0000 reply
Yes, it's Zwiki coloring the wiki links according to their target's issue colour, if any. Since recently but this failed to appear in the ChangeLog? somehow, I don't know how to keep it consistent when working in different CVS branches.

Fuelled by failure to find some simple docs and a good IRC rant: an experimental ZopeBookMirror?. I'm quite pleased with how this is working out.

No restarts or memory errors since going to one thread yesterday. (I restarted it myself to install new code). I'm finding the site zippier, since the one thread can keep all pages loaded in cache and there's usually not much concurrent activity to cause delays.

MemoryUsage has some new data on a big, old zwiki (handhelds.org) that's somehow running much faster and using much less memory than this one.

Thoughts on the insert method? --DeanGoodmanson, Fri, 15 Aug 2003 20:37:01 +0000 reply
#577 Insert page method

Especially interested in ideas on how it could be used. (Justification through use cases. :-))

Thoughts on the insert method? --SimonMichael, Fri, 15 Aug 2003 22:12:58 +0000 reply
I think it's good.. when I tried to implement this, I could find no good answer to "where do you put the form ?" and gave up.

Thoughts on the insert method? --DeanGoodmanson, Fri, 15 Aug 2003 22:39:38 +0000 reply

when I tried to implement this, I could find no good answer to "where do you put the form ?" and gave up.

I don't think there are enough uses to justify a "prepend" checkbox on the zwiki site. I'll list some of the specifics on my utility views this weekend. (I'm looking forward to the code and discussions on renderings based on new comment header, and Bill's blogging comments)

reStructuredText notes --DeanGoodmanson, Fri, 15 Aug 2003 22:42:44 +0000 reply

I'd like to be able to turn off the RST warnings.

When I asked privately about the raw/in-line html to a regular rest list member, I was told to send it to the list as they didn't have time. Apparently my question wasn't THAT redundant, and I didn't need to ask but noticed the answer in regards to someone asking about math markup. I'm sure you can word the question better than I, so if you'll post it, I (who am subscribed) will watch for the answer.

http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/docutils-users , docutils-users@lists.sourceforge.net

speedups --SimonMichael, Sat, 16 Aug 2003 00:47:35 +0000 reply
The expensive operations noted on MemoryUsage now use the catalog if possible. You should find renaming, mail-in, contents and search faster. Note the search is no longer case and whitespace-sensitive - it's a standard ZCatalog TextIndex? search. (I tried ZCTextIndex? and TextIndexNG2? but had to give up - sorry for the downtime).

So with a suitable catalog, large wikis should now run happily with a much smaller memory footprint. Except for all those DTML hacks . Nevertheless I've gone back to two threads just to see how we do now.

speedups --SimonMichael, Sat, 16 Aug 2003 00:48:05 +0000 reply
PS and the link titles (tooltips) are gone. Let me know if you miss them.

speedups --SimonMichael, Sat, 16 Aug 2003 02:09:46 +0000 reply

gone back to two threads just to see how we do now.

No good, stick with one for now.

what wikipedia's up to --Simon Michael, Sun, 17 Aug 2003 20:15:25 +0000 reply
The wikipedians hang out on wikitech-l ( gmane.science.linguistics.wikipedia.technical ). An interesting place for wiki engine hackers.

Brion Vibber wrote last month:

We've really got to work on stabilizing the latest fun fun changes... and we can start to look at the boring stuff that needs to get done.

Stuff that's maybe not a sexy new Table of Contents or Auto-Generated Maps or Cool New Language Support or Skin That Doesn't Scare People Away, but that really needs to get done to keep the wiki running. Optimization, fixes for race conditions, minor but continuous usability problems. The stuff no one wants to touch. :)

If something strikes your fancy, please oh please claim one of these for your own:

http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_tasks

deletions, mailout change --SimonMichael, Mon, 18 Aug 2003 00:33:45 +0000 reply
Seeking to further improve the signal level of mail from a zwiki, I've stopped sending out page deletions and page renames by default. Although these were handy for monitoring activity on zwiki.org, I think they belong with the non-default "edits" mailout policy. Let's see how it works.

I thought of a second argument for this later, I wonder if you agree: I think mailing these out discourages cleanup and promote inertia, because every deletion notification invites reaction from everyone, rather than people who have actually used the page, and there's a tendency to build endlessly but resist destruction, when in fact I think we need to promote more creative destruction. In most cases you'll look at that page a year later and realize it really wasn't worth keeping after all.

This may vary according to a wiki's general level of consensus and quality of edits. In a more diverse/"hostile" environment, you may need the wiki to be more verbose. Possibly I'm extra comfortable with this idea because the deletions are all mine right now. :) (is anyone else able to delete pages ? Laura couldn't rename, for some reason).

As it happens, after this I went on a roll and deleted 100 pages (B to M). These were test and low-content pages and some which I merged elsewhere. Visible in RecycleBin? for now.

deletions, mailout change --SimonMichael, Mon, 18 Aug 2003 02:35:57 +0000 reply
More deletions, and WikiBadges rehabilitated. Also I am removing Page Maintainers badges as I find them, none of those pages have been touched in months.

Re: what wikipedia's up to PLUS me --laura trippi, Mon, 18 Aug 2003 04:23:53 +0000 reply

>We've really got to work on stabilizing the latest fun fun changes... and we can start to look at the boring stuff that needs to get done.

Seems to be going around! =}

At the Pie/Echo/Atom wiki, after the recent blow out over wiki chaos and confusion, they've embarked on a major clean up, w/a very nice page on protocols for tending wikis:

http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/ThreadModeAndRefactorOk

I'll try to clean up the WikiMailAtZwiki? page this week and tidy up what I can quickly re: StyleSheets doc. But beyond that, I'm afraid I need to extricate myself and concentrate on other things. ={

My teaching load this fall is pretty heavy, and I also need to work on publishing as defined, you know, by tenure committees (yuk!).

Oh, I may also work a bit on the doc re: installing zwiki for plone if I find something helpful I can do while I'm sorting it out for myself.

LaT

comments on Delete Me's --DeanGoodmanson, Tue, 19 Aug 2003 14:34:54 +0000 reply
after quickly reading through the digest and latest set of edits..

My vote is to go ahead and delete most of the pages you've questioned for delete.

What it does bring to mind is that I would like examples of the major iterations of those pages archived. I'm particularly interested in: MultipPageFaq?, SinglePageFaq?, ReSTFaq?, RecentChangesAsTable?, RecentChangesByTime?, RecentChangesWithExcerpt?.

Twiki Markup as Page Type --ThomasSprinzing, Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:10:54 +0000 reply
Hi Folks, i came to use zope and zwiki after finding out about zope's powerful architecture. However, for the wiki markup languages, i found twiki markup is very easy to learn yet very powerful. As my wiki pages mostly make intensive use of tables, i find stx to be a chore. Especially, if you add a row somwhere inbetween and then have to insert spaces to realign the rest of the table. So, is there anybody out there, that has the same problem and can offer help. Or, if you geeks gave me a whole lot of hints (i'm a newbie) - i'd volunteer to implement something like the twiki markup as a page type.

ThomasSprinzing

Re: what wikipedia's up to PLUS me --SimonMichael, Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:12:26 +0000 reply

I'll try to clean up the WikiMailAtZwiki?? page this week and tidy up what I can quickly re: StyleSheets doc. But beyond that, I'm afraid I need to extricate myself and concentrate on other things.

Thanks.. I can understand this. NB all: stale content that's in the public eye may attract the wiki cleaners eventually, you may want to archive work in progress under your home page to avoid this (or, summarize/delete and go at it again when you have more time).

comments on Delete Me's --SimonMichael, Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:15:39 +0000 reply
Thanks.. nb I wasn't planning to delete those faq pages and those recent changes functionalities are demonstrated in the current RC code.

Twiki Markup as Page Type --SimonMichael, Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:23:43 +0000 reply
Hi Thomas, take a look at eg render_msgwwmlprelinkfitissue in ZWikiPage.py . If you just replace the translate_WWML call you'll have a twiki page type with all bells and whistles. For some text formatting code examples try WWML.py or MoinMoinMarkup.

catalog problems --SimonMichael, Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:28:19 +0000 reply
The catalog is giving some problems, affecting RecentChanges? and other places.. I have been unable to get it to complete a reindex. Probably memory issues. Pardon any non-responses while I try again.

How to enable subscribe -- Tue, 19 Aug 2003 21:09:10 +0000 reply
None of my wiki pages have the "subscribe" link. How is this facility enabled?

Books on Zwiki -- Tue, 19 Aug 2003 21:28:24 +0000 reply
Are there any books or chapters on Zwiki?

Books on Zwiki --DeanGoodmanson, Tue, 19 Aug 2003 21:34:23 +0000 reply
I think there's a section in "Zope: Web Application Development and Content Management", BookLookup:0735711100 , but it only covers the basics, which is probably only what is similar to the time of that publishing to the current version.

But...for all your questions, you've come to the right place!

Books on Zwiki --SimonMichael, Tue, 19 Aug 2003 21:35:03 +0000 reply
I don't think so.

How to enable subscribe --SimonMichael, Tue, 19 Aug 2003 21:50:18 +0000 reply
See WikiMail -> Mail-out setup. Basically, a mail_replyto property to your wiki folder using the ZMI, containing a suitable address.

How to enable subscribe --SimonMichael, Tue, 19 Aug 2003 21:51:50 +0000 reply
("add", I meant to say.)

the wiki cleaners (+ TrailHead|s) --laura trippi, Wed, 20 Aug 2003 04:03:57 +0000 reply
SimonMichael wrote:

>>afraid I need to extricate myself and concentrate on other things. > > > Thanks.. I can understand this.

Oh, thanks for the reply, Simon. I wish I could help out more. You're really going at the wiki cleaning and that's great.

NB all: stale content that's in the public eye may attract the wiki cleaners eventually

I'm glad to hear it! =}

Re: site nav and finding content, AndrewBurrow's research wiki has some excellent strategies, including TrailHead|s, "a page designed as a starting point into a body of content." Like a wiki RoadMap? but a much clearer term and concept, I think.

http://zwiki.sial.rmit.edu.au/albCorpus/TrailHead

Clearly a trail benefits from a well sign posted starting point. In the physical world, such trail heads often make warnings about the required time or experience and allow comparison of alternate trails based on a map.

And an example:

http://zwiki.sial.rmit.edu.au/albCorpus/TheProcedures

Of course, I recognize that the main issue is finding time and person power and the inclination to clean up! Still, the more navigation-friendly, the better zwiki.org might be at bringing in participants.

And now, back to this course site I'm setting up in plone and the question of whether I dare ask 40 non-programmer undergraduates to work in wiki's! What am I, nuts? =}

LaT

promote creative destruction --laura trippi, Wed, 20 Aug 2003 04:53:33 +0000 reply
SimonMichael wrote:

and there's a tendency to build endlessly but resist destruction, when in fact I think we need to promote more creative destruction.

Hey, that's really good! What the wiki world needs is a 12-step program to promote creative destruction. =}

(is anyone else able to delete pages ? Laura couldn't rename, for some reason).

Oh, that was only b/c I hadn't thought to enter a name in my user options. Didn't realize that affected my permissions. And tho I probably shouldn't be, I'm still foggy on it why it does.

I mean, OK, I'm no longer anonymous but I haven't been authenticated, either. So ... ?

LaT

catalog problems --Simon Michael, Wed, 20 Aug 2003 15:23:02 +0000 reply

The catalog is giving some problems, affecting RecentChanges? and other

PS this got resolved.. to successfully update within memory quota I needed to crank the subtransaction size way down (<= 500) and just let it run for ~15 minutes.

promote creative destruction --Simon Michael, Wed, 20 Aug 2003 15:29:23 +0000 reply
laura trippi <latrippi@netvironments.org> writes:

Oh, that was only b/c I hadn't thought to enter a name in my user options. Didn't realize that affected my permissions. And tho I probably shouldn't be, I'm still foggy on it why it does.

I mean, OK, I'm no longer anonymous but I haven't been authenticated, either. So ... ?

It was a compromise between leaving the new-and-potentially-dangerous rename and delete operations available to all, and protecting them from casual passing vandals. Not just on zwiki.org, but as the zwiki default. It's been in the docs (lately, in FAQ) but perhaps it's still too obscure ?

Definition STX RFC --DeanGoodmanson, Wed, 20 Aug 2003 15:46:03 +0000 reply
I'm glad for the code to remove the spaces between lists.

But would anyone else but me like the spaces retained in the definition lists, like ZwikiTips ?

Definition STX RFC --laura trippi, Wed, 20 Aug 2003 20:19:54 +0000 reply
DeanGoodmanson wrote:

I'm glad for the code to remove the spaces between lists.

Where is this proposed? This behavior should be controlled in a style sheet so users can adjust it to their needs.

But would anyone else but me like the spaces retained in the definition lists, like ZwikiTips ?

Uh, there's no line space between items in the default zwiki DL, is there?

PLEASE: if you're changing basic zwiki mark up / layout protocols, put the discussion someplace where people can find, contribute to, and track it. These changes impact on the wiki "quality of life" of zwiki's end users.

LaT

Definition STX RFC --DeanGoodmanson, Wed, 20 Aug 2003 20:35:53 +0000 reply
* List items in default STX are each given a <p> tag. :-P

  • Initial workaround was to modify Zope's STX code
  • Later, I think, Simon integrated a fix into the zwiki page processor

TextFormattingRules is an interesting mix of using zwiki STX bullets and HTML for when extra space is desired. There are a number of workarounds to STX behavior implemented in Zwiki, and I'm not sure where they're noted. List handling is one, footnotes/freeform links, ?? .. when I have time, where should those be noted?

permissions for rename/delete --laura trippi, Wed, 20 Aug 2003 20:37:13 +0000 reply
Simon Michael wrote:

laura trippi writes:
I mean, OK, I'm no longer anonymous but I haven't been authenticated, either. So ... ?

It was a compromise between leaving the new-and-potentially-dangerous rename and delete operations available to all, and protecting them from casual passing vandals. Not just on zwiki.org, but as the zwiki default. It's been in the docs (lately, in FAQ) but perhaps it's still too obscure ?

Where, exactly (I don't see it in the FAQ)?

Are you saying: in allocating permissions for rename/delete, zwiki distinquishes between anonymous users and unauthenticated users who have inserted a username in user options?

LaT

Definition STX RFC --laura trippi, Thu, 21 Aug 2003 00:14:59 +0000 reply
> ?? .. when I have time, where should those be noted?

I don't know, Dean. I'm losing it. I'm trying to be helpful but the chaos here is overwhelming.

I was trying to pull back, then discovered a few issues w/the defaults in zwiki_plone, which I'd hoped to use. And there's no doc anywhere that I can find of differences in zwiki_plone from plain zwiki.

There are a number of workarounds to STX behavior implemented in Zwiki, and I'm not sure where they're noted.

And if you don't know, how am I supposed to find them? Trial and error, and then it will be dropped in the next month's rev? Where/how can the end-users weigh in with their opinions? Where is this project heading?

I rely on my zwiki-driven wiki's but I may have to ... I don't know, switch? But, then, how can I, when I want to work in Zope/Plone?:

  The joy of coding Python should be in seeing short,
  concise, readable classes that express a lot of action
  in a small amount of clear code - not in reams of trivial
  code that bores the reader to death.--Guido van Rossum

Please excuse the following snark attack, but if your friends won't tell you, who will? When I saw that, I had to bite my tongue from writing:

  The joy of USING WIKI should be in seeing short, concise,
  readable PAGES that express a lot of MEANING in a small
  amount of clear TEXT AND LINKS - not in reams of HALF-OUTDATED
  FRAGMENTS that CONFUSE the USER to EXASPERATION.--Anon zwiki.org End User

I watch how hard you guys are working. I really appreciate the effort that you're putting in! But I wonder sometimes whether you realize the impact your decisions have on end users. The endless churn in protocols, the lack of doc and clarity, has wasted hours of my time.

I wish that I knew how to help, what to suggest. But my questions about the larger process context (w/r/t CSS, about a project roadmap) have gone unanswered. I don't know what to do next.

LaT

Definition STX RFC -- Thu, 21 Aug 2003 03:32:04 +0000 reply
It's hard to respond to that one, mind if I try?

The best roadmap is SimonsPlan2004, and although it's noted out of date, it has been helpful and became outdated around the Plone drive.

Also, please remember that I'm primarily a discussion-bot that dives into the code maybe every 3 months for simple hacks. If it's any concessions, I think I throw out a "what d'ya think about this?" mis-labeled as RFC every month or so, with about 1/4 gaining serious discussion. Most cases get rightly-politely set aside in the name of simplicity.

I'm not sure to get heads together on certain issues. (CSS, etc.) It amazes me when I hear of big efforts from contributors who've never squawked in GD. Patches still rule, finishing's the dilema. If your expect a "read the source" kind of answer at this point, you may be comforted by the "Motivation" section of the ZopeBookMirror?. #zwiki is a venue I've not ventured into, but when I've been at #zope it's usually been helpful.

I hope the current aggressive pruning is giving you hope. It has me.

The wiki is migrating from every page is discussion to ZWiki:DocumentMode , and I'm in the general category that pages like GardeningPolicyDiscussion should be deleted. Protocol must be simple, Follow-up is critical.

FreeformLinks [Chapter 13: Plone and CMF]? -- Thu, 21 Aug 2003 03:49:42 +0000 reply
After reading the comments about FreeformLinks on [Chapter 13: Plone and CMF]?, I'm understanding a bit of the confusion my peers have had with wikilinks, but... They prefered Freeform, even put URL's in brackets. I personally find case sensitive WikiLinks? odd. Why shouldn't ZWiki also map to ZwiKi? ?

WikiPedia style linking welcome.

FivePages?, BackLinks --DeanGoodmanson, Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:44:57 +0000 reply
Would you mind explaining the removal of the () on the FivePages? and Backlinks code?

Also, the above 2 posts are from me.

Twiki Markup as Page Type -- Fri, 22 Aug 2003 09:34:29 +0000 reply
Thanks, Simon. I had a quick look - may my problem drills down to "how do i do tables in WWml?". I onterpreted the source as to write something like that: | TableRow?1Column1 | Column 2 | | Row2 Col1 | Row 2 Col 2 | which would be perfectly what i need for the Help System. (<-If this is done,i'll post it here. I use line-by line parsing to do Topic-language-lookups. The table itself should display well too, though) Basically, STX Tables are a chore, if you insert or change a row, and thus the whole table has to be edited.(and the Table has more than 4 rows)

Thanx Thomas

Definition STX RFC --Simon Michael, Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:36:53 +0000 reply
Good morning wikizens.. the site seems to be all ship-shape again after the recent code refactoring.

I'll try to respond briefly to the recent flurry, here and on [Chapter 13: Plone and CMF]?.

White space between list elements: this went away when StructuredTextNG appeared in Zope and Zwiki switched to it, some time ago. No, I personally would not want to tweak it for definition lists since it's not worth deviating from the STX standard. Yes ideally it should be doable with styles of course.

Zwiki's STX workarounds: Zwiki changes STXNG very little, just makes it more robust in two minor ways you won't notice (see the code: stxToHtml ). Also Zwiki's STX doesn't support the :img: syntax, which needs to be fixed. STX uses brackets and so does Zwiki but these don't interfere.

The wiki is migrating from every page is discussion to ZWiki:DocumentMode , and I'm in the general category that pages like GardeningPolicyDiscussion should be deleted.

That's good to hear. I've now gone through the whole wiki deleting obvious non-personal test and fluff pages, which got rid of ~250. The next pass could be a big discussion cleanup. Another could be the suggestion and modification pages.

(snipped the rest for a new thread)

chaos, order, how to help --Simon Michael, Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:43:21 +0000 reply

I watch how hard you guys are working. I really appreciate the effort that you're putting in! But I wonder sometimes whether you realize the impact your decisions have on end users. The endless churn in protocols, the lack of doc and clarity, has wasted hours of my time.

I think I understand. I've delivered this rant myself, and thank you for it. I was moved to work on Zwiki because the same situation existed in the Zope and other communities (still does!) and I didn't want tools and infrastructure to be the obstacle.

But, a slight reality check. I'm one guy, trying to survive and live a balanced life while putting out this large free project, which takes more time even than you realize, I think. And I think it's true to say that, good discussion and occasional great contributions aside, the coding, the site maintenance, and the useful writing is still mostly coming from me. It sure feels that way.

While this persists, obviously I have to prioritize. I try to put my time and energy where I think it's going to give the biggest payoff - increasing zwiki's appeal, attracting more help, etc. I don't know if I've made the best choices. Often I end up working wherever I seem to get energy to continue.

I do take docs and a clear approachable wiki seriously - see eg ZwikiQuality from a long time back. But I've often felt it more important to work on making the software effective, non-confusing, and robust first. It's no fun working on docs if this wiki is slow and crashing.

Happily, I think that's been solved this month. And we have collectively been building our knowledge of zwiki, wiki organization issues, how to handle discussion, etc. I feel a swing of the pendulum from chaos to order taking place.

I wish that I knew how to help, what to suggest.

I know the feeling. Hang in there.

If you don't have time, you won't be able to right now; perfectly understandable. Take a break.

If you have a little, I think it would be very useful to spend a few minutes, regularly, on wiki cleanup - eg helping to reduce the page count, or updating a single key page, or identifying a shortlist of such key pages. HowToHelp might be one. I would like people to find such a page when they ask that question, with an up-to-date list of 5/15/60-minute tasks that need doing.

chaos, order, how to help --SimonMichael, Fri, 22 Aug 2003 18:13:31 +0000 reply
And an alternate, shorter answer: don't ask me how you can help - figure it out and show me how you can help. (And if I'm getting in the way, show me how to do better.)

permissions for rename/delete --Simon Michael, Fri, 22 Aug 2003 19:03:16 +0000 reply
laura trippi writes:

Where, exactly (I don't see it in the FAQ)?

Are you saying: in allocating permissions for rename/delete, zwiki distinquishes between anonymous users and unauthenticated users who have inserted a username in user options?

That's right. http://zwiki.org/FAQ#How%20do%20I%20rename%20a%20page? is where I was thinking of, but it only mentions the page management form and needs to be clarified now.

Looking at the code, it seems renaming requires Zwiki: Rename pages permission and if you are the Anonymous User, you must have a username cookie. Ie totally unknown visitors can't rename. Deleting is the same. I've just updated FAQ a little.

FivePages?, BackLinks --Simon Michael, Fri, 22 Aug 2003 19:22:44 +0000 reply

Would you mind explaining the removal of the () on the FivePages? and Backlinks code?

Sure..

(long confusing explanation deleted)

in short, I've recently changed the pages() and backlinksFor() methods used by these pages to return small metadata objects rather than actual page objects, to improve caching performance. These have to be accessed slightly differently at the moment. The comments in the code have more.

chaos, order, how to help --simon, Fri, 22 Aug 2003 20:29:14 +0000 reply
Oh, HowToHelp became HowToHelp. And I was thinking of renaming it to HowToHelp.

I think it's true to say that, good discussion and occasional great contributions aside, the coding, the site maintenance, and the useful writing is still mostly coming from me

And now that I've pissed off the rest of you.. :)

Prove me wrong! I'm going outside.

chaos, order, how to help --laura trippi, Fri, 22 Aug 2003 21:18:44 +0000 reply
Thank you, Simon. Though I had paused a few times before hitting send, I also felt badly about having sent it. The last thing I want to do is to discourage you or anyone from the important work you're doing here. But then again, it seemed I needed to express my frustrations, too.

I do realize it's an almost single-handed effort. I was wondering whether more clarity about the project development process would bring more people in.

And an alternate, shorter answer: don't ask me how you can help - figure it out and show me how you can help. (And if I'm getting in the way, show me how to do better.)

I'd been trying to do that, though my efforts were really very modest and my follow through has been ... pretty lame. But that's partly b/c I didn't feel like I could get much purchase or traction on the process here. It's difficult to contribute when I can't figure out what's going on.

In part, I think it's b/c I'm not a developer, and in part, an issue of cognitive style. I'm very "info sensitive" so that what's tolerable and productive chaos to others can be quite overwhelming to me.

This means that working in zwiki is extremely satisfying for me, bringing clarity out of a brainstormy mess. But trying to engage w/the zwiki.org site might not be such a good idea.

I hope at least my weblog postings indicate how much I appreciate the work you're doing.

Zwiki is a cornerstone tool for me of the zope environment. I don't know where I'd be without it! So all the thanks and kudos I've expressed before, well, they're the overriding thing.

LaT

chaos, order, how to help --laura trippi, Fri, 22 Aug 2003 21:21:58 +0000 reply

Prove me wrong! I'm going outside.

Watch out
mars is coming! =}

permissions for rename/delete --laura trippi, Fri, 22 Aug 2003 22:38:44 +0000 reply
Yes, that's clearer now, thanks. But I wonder whether it shouldn't be on the user options form itself, since it's a question that comes up for anyone, not just site admins - or users who are committed enough to the visit the zwiki.org FAQ. =}

Actually, I'm still/again confused on permissions. In the situation when I want editing restricted to authenticated users: Unless I'm actually logged into the ZMI, I can't seem to get the edit link to show up.

I'm wondering whether that's related to this. Sorry if this is spelled out somewhere and I'm missing it, just point me to it.

LaT

threads ? bah who has time for threads --simon, Fri, 22 Aug 2003 23:33:28 +0000 reply
Yes - I know you're posting because you care, you're appreciative, and you already have done (are doing) a lot to help. Of course, please continue pointing out things that seem broken, and expressing frustration when you need to. I seem to have had some building up myself. Dean made a perfectly good reply but perhaps I was stung by the paperclip thing..

We decided not to show the edit link when you don't have permission to use it. If you want it always showing, you need to customize the skin. I hope that's what you're getting at, I don't always understand what people mean.

permissions for rename/delete --simon, Fri, 22 Aug 2003 23:35:48 +0000 reply

I wonder whether it shouldn't be on the user options form itself,

(Yes, good idea.)

Re: SCRUM Methodology (ZwikiScrumDiscussion) --PieterB, Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:21:08 +0000 reply
On Thu, Aug 21, 2003 at 01:31:16PM -0400, you wrote at Chi-web, http://listserv.acm.org/archives/wa.cgi?A2=ind0308c&L=chi-web&F=&S=&P=2506

I was wondering if anyone of you had heard of SCRUM software development methodology and used it? Our organization is in the process of implementing it (not my decision...) and I was wondering if anyone could share some goods and bad news about SCRUM.

There are some pages on Zwiki.org concerning Scrum, see: http://zwiki.org/SearchPage?expr=scrum e.g. books on http://zwiki.org/ZwikiScrumDiscussion (+slashdot review) or you could contact Wim or Dean through the wiki.

Please send replies to me offlist. I will collect, summarize statement, and post the summary.

I forwarded your message to http://zwiki.org/ZwikiScrumDiscussion

CHI-WEB: http://www.sigchi.org/web

PieterB

... -- Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:25:38 +0000 reply
Here's kind of a random question:

Obviously, since there are no real access controls around Wiki, some etiquette is required when it comes to modifying other people's stuff. In some cases it may be less important (such as when the document is meant to be a generic/objective technical discussion), but in some cases (e.g. commentary), it, I think, is more important.

What etiquette should be followed when considering whether or not to correct spelling errors? If I see someone's page and it has spelling errors, should I:

  • Let it go -- everyone has a style of their own - Modify it - Notify the author privately

Re: SCRUM Methodology (ZwikiScrumDiscussion) --PieterB, Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:27:54 +0000 reply
Hmmm... i the message was mean't for ZwikiScrumDiscussion page.

Why doesn't the auto-hyperlinking doesn't work?

I'm rather busy at the moment, so unfortuately not much (z)wiki time ;(

Re: SCRUM Methodology (ZwikiScrumDiscussion) --Simon Michael, Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:40:47 +0000 reply
zwiki-wiki@zwiki.org (PieterB) writes:

Hmmm... i the message was mean't for ZwikiScrumDiscussion page.

Including the wikiname in the subject wasn't enough to direct it there - for this it needs to be in brackets.

Why doesn't the auto-hyperlinking doesn't work?

Fixed now, thanks.

spelling etiquette --Simon Michael, Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:45:42 +0000 reply
Good question. Can you see if there's a good answer at WikiWikiWeb:WikiSocialNorms , and point to it from around BestPractices if you think it appropriate.

spelling etiquette --Roy S. Rapoport, Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:54:48 +0000 reply
Hey, thanks for the pointer! WikiWikiWeb:GoodWikiCitizen lists as the #4 rule "Fix grammar, spelling, and factual inaccuracies." I'll add a pointer to it from BestPractices or thereabouts.

server update --Simon Michael, Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:13:32 +0000 reply
Zwiki is now better-behaved with respect to caching efficiency and peak MemoryUsage, and this server is running three threads instead of one. Each thread has a target cache size of 500 so there's a certain amount of cache activity ongoing now, eg accessing a page with many links may be slow the first time, but I think browsing performance should be decent overall. The site should stay reasonably responsive while someone is saving a big page or I'm doing a pack.

I did a 1-day pack (800->200M), all pages have been upgraded and recataloged, and I hope to leave it to run quietly for a bit. If you see problems like bad slowness or hangs, site errors or restarts, please post. The only things I know of that could overflow memory and cause a restart right now are: 1. renaming a heavily-linked page, and 2. DTML code that loads all pages into memory (shouldn't be any of this lying around).

Release Trains link --DeanGoodmanson, Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:00:08 +0000 reply
Monthly releases +1 link1 , link2

0.22rc1 released --simon, Tue, 26 Aug 2003 00:10:12 +0000 reply
and ReleaseNotes. Testers, as always your reports will be most helpful. I'm hoping this will be a solid release that I can recommend for zope.org.

Note *Three new boolean properties are supported, on page or folder: use_wikiname_links, use_bracket_links, use_doublebracket_links, for configuring your linking syntax of choice* (yay, go wikipedians!)

No blank line between list items --Roy S. Rapoport, Tue, 26 Aug 2003 17:16:07 +0000 reply
This is kind of a stupid question, but I'm trying to figure out how to make it so we can use ordered/unordered lists with no blank lines between list items. zwiki.org does this, so

  • item
  • item

works fine, but our own installation does not. We're using the latest prod zwiki (0.21.1), so I'm guessing this may be a Zope thing (?). We're running 2.5.1 ...

No blank line between list items --SimonMichael, Tue, 26 Aug 2003 17:42:33 +0000 reply
It sounds like zope 2.5.1 uses the older version of StructuredText.. but this zwiki code seems to imply otherwise, so I'm not sure what's going on:

        # generate html
        if ZOPEVERSION < (2,4):
            text = str(StructuredText.HTML(text,level=2))
        else:
            text = StructuredText.HTMLNG(
                myDocument(StructuredText.Basic(str(text))),
                level=2)

No blank line between list items --DeanGoodmanson, Tue, 26 Aug 2003 18:00:45 +0000 reply
To fix this at the Zope source level...

lib\python\StructuredText\HTMLClass.py , look at the paragraph function and make sure there aren't extraneous <p>'s in the bullet(), numbered() functions.

This looks to be changed in Python 2.2, but that's a Zope 2.7 thing.

No blank line between list items --Roy S. Rapoport, Tue, 26 Aug 2003 18:04:17 +0000 reply
I ended up cheating -- I copied the StructuredText folder/built-in product from a 2.6.1 installation. It's happier now.

-roy

rebooting server --SimonMichael, Tue, 26 Aug 2003 18:25:51 +0000 reply
Changing this server's timezone! Stand by, reboot may take minutes

SharePoint? and wiki --DeanGoodmanson, Wed, 27 Aug 2003 08:19:01 -0700 reply
Interesting testimony of MS SharePoint? use compared to wiki hopes: http://radio.weblogs.com/0106046/2003/08/11.html#a306 A number of wiki features come to mind here, along with a very big question: Does the Plone and ZWiki combo give this guy 90% of what he wants?

SharePoint? and wiki --simon, Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:58:04 -0700 reply
It sounds that way. Even plain zope & zwiki perhaps. Plone/CMF is a two-edged sword if your main interest is wiki.

Nice AnnoyingQuote!

Search comments --simon, Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:17:09 -0700 reply
By the way I meant to reply to this.. (how to do this, now ? found it in the archive, clicked reply, changed the url to GD)

I was overwhelmed with dtml-anxiety when wanting to do a quick mod of AllPages

I can understand - tip: aside from minor tweaks, I would not be going near these big DTML scripts without the help of a powerful colorizing editor (Emacs in my case). I used to access by FTP but lately I have found ExternalEditor access faster and very solid aside from the usual quirks. Try this if you're not already using it ?

Quirks off the top of my head: you have to wait for the bottom of the page to load before alt-X will work; once in a while you need to remove the edit timestamp to get it to save; error dialogs sometimes take a long time to pop up.

WikiCleanup - german pages --simon, Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:20:13 -0700 reply
Can someone tell me the status of the ProjektWikiVerwendung? wiki pages ?

I'd like to welcome to other languages on this wiki - if it makes sense. Right now without translation links and/or a maintainenance contact these are an obstacle to WikiCleanup and I'd be inclined to delete them.

misc. updates --simon, Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:34:49 -0700 reply
maintenance. I knew there was something screwy about that word...

I saved memory by removing some unnecessary catalog metadata (especially DateTime?'s) and increased cache size from 500 to 1200. Also stopped using ZOPE_SECURITY_POLICY=PYTHON and disabled the dynamic stylesheet for now. The site seems to be running great, but it hasn't been stressed lately. Renaming is still a memory-expensive operation.

I "fixed" that so-annoying too-wide comment form bug that started a while back, at least on my screen. Also there's a sneaky new threading behaviour (not in the rc) that tries to group comments on the same page into a shallow thread even when they are not replies (see mailman ).

WikiCleanup is making progress, eg I cleaned up the TextFormattingRules mess somewhat. I looked at some AboutZwikiDiscussion but removing/summarizing them felt hard.. plenty of other things to do however, like cleaning up i18n so that can get moving.

WikiCleanup - german pages --DeanGoodmanson, Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:51:05 -0700 reply
Do you think FloK would mind if we temporarilly placed them on NooWiki until they are updated?

free software advances in Brazil --simon, Wed, 27 Aug 2003 12:46:50 -0700 reply
A nice slashdot thread.. eg http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=76217&cid=6802704

free software advances in Brazil --simon, Wed, 27 Aug 2003 12:54:09 -0700 reply
And http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=76217&cid=6802806 http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=76217&cid=6803002

The rhetoric around this issue in Latin America has included "paying tribute", "software imperialism" and other politically loaded phrases. When it becomes a matter of national honor, and when M$ is seen as the greedy absentee landlord sucking profits from the country and giving little in return ... it's over.

Oh, I'll just let you read it shall I.. :) Don't forget to raise your score threshold.

Zwiki as Root -- Wed, 27 Aug 2003 21:50:17 -0700 reply
Hey. I've read the FAQ and looked around a bit, but was unable to find an answer... How do you get Zwiki to install in the "root" of your zope server? ie. zwiki.org/FrontPage - the zwiki must be in the root. How have you done this? I've also found a bug, when i create a zwiki web with an id of home it errors out. ::

Error Type: AttributeError? Error Value: _setObject

Improve bug reporting docs --PieterB, Thu, 28 Aug 2003 01:27:09 -0700 reply
I just encountered a bug in Putty (ssh-client), and I was impressed at their bug reporting docs: PuTTY? Feedback and Bug Reporting and How to Report Bugs Effectively

We might use those docs to improve the Zwiki docs and Zwiki IssueTracker. That might help to keep the number of open issues much lower.

Zwiki as Root --Simon Michael, Thu, 28 Aug 2003 09:40:28 -0700 reply
zwiki.org is in a /zwiki subfolder.. the VirtualHostMonster? product makes it look like root. You can also just create wiki pages in your actual root folder.

Improve bug reporting docs --Simon Michael, Thu, 28 Aug 2003 09:43:06 -0700 reply
Thanks, I'll take a look. We have HowToReportABug IIRC. I think our bug reports are pretty high quality by the way - given that's it's a general "issue" tracker - do you not ?

navigation ideas --SimonMichael, Thu, 28 Aug 2003 10:05:53 -0700 reply
A few things I'm thinking might be good:

  • combine the site map that's currently on the front page with the page hierarchy display (and limit the hierarchy depth by default to keep the page quick). Make this the single starting point for finding things in the wiki, and point the "contents" link here.
  • now, should a page like this be the front page or not ? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. To reveal content gradually and avoid scaring new visitors we could move it off to eg NavigationAids and leave FrontPage short and sweet, like WikiWikiWeb:FrontPage.

BBC zwiki work --BillSeitz, Thu, 28 Aug 2003 10:59:19 -0700 reply
See this about them building in MoinMoin rules parsing to replace StructuredText and generating clean HTML with CSS. They intend to donate back that code...

BBC zwiki work --SimonMichael, Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:40:51 -0700 reply
Ooh! Nice links. I am very pro-BBC right now. I'll have to spend more time later.

Amen to the "wikis don't have to be ugly" (duh).

But when we actually came to working through Zwiki's rules for text-formatting, we were all a bit startled - they were extraordinarily arcane and complex. Where does this come from ? Was it the state of the docs ? Zwiki's additional TextFormattingRules ? Or do they really find the StructuredTextRules? complex ?

I find (the essence of) STX consistent and intuitive. I can write it without thinking.

BBC zwiki work --DeanGoodmanson, Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:56:15 -0700 reply
Does that MoinMoin parser allow in-line HTML?

speaking of fancy interfaces, how's JordanCarswell and CommonPlace doing?

extraordinarily arcane and complex.

Amazing. One man's complexity is whitespace w/ escapes while another's is strict multi-character sigils.

another nice CommonPlace site --SimonMichael, Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:59:28 -0700 reply
http://jhh.opi.upmc.edu/main/HomePage

I've added "update PeopleUsingZwiki" to WikiCleanup. Anyone care to take it on ?

BBC zwiki work --SimonMichael, Thu, 28 Aug 2003 13:37:09 -0700 reply
Hmm MoinMoinMarkup looks older. I wonder if plasticbag guy missed it ?

semi-colons in URL's? --DeanGoodmanson, Thu, 28 Aug 2003 13:52:18 -0700 reply
Quick question: should ; be added to urlchars? I believe it's valid, noted in LinkingProblems? through the following example: http://www.kuro5hin.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2002/2/2/14302/91040

How to display a link to log in -- Thu, 28 Aug 2003 14:01:50 -0700 reply
I saw the section in the Administration Guide about "Displaying different options for different users". However, it does not say how I can get a visitor to log in in the first place. I'm thinking something like "If you want to edit this page, click on this link". How do I do this?

semi-colons in URL's? --Simon Michael, Thu, 28 Aug 2003 16:20:43 -0700 reply
I don't see why not. Added, thanks for the suggestion. There should be some official URL regexp we can just import here.

How to display a link to log in --DeanGoodmanson, Thu, 28 Aug 2003 16:21:38 -0700 reply
I can't find a quick answer, and that this information isn't easily searched for is disappointing.

Couple of references in the Zope code: 1. manage_top_frame.dtml will show you how to log somebody out (although it pulls up an annoying login box, see "manage_zmi_logout"), along with code on AUTHENTICATE_USER.getUserName to do some checking and display current login status, also be sure to check the UserOptions? page code...

How to display a link to log in --Simon Michael, Thu, 28 Aug 2003 16:23:42 -0700 reply
You need to customize your "wikipage" template and remove the conditional that hides the edit link. If you have time could you add this to FAQ ?

In general we hide features that aren't available, but this one keeps coming up, and I'm thinking of going back to the very early behaviour - always display the edit link, but crossed out when not available.

How to display a link to log in --SimonMichael, Thu, 28 Aug 2003 16:30:25 -0700 reply
That is, crossed out, but still a hyperlink, so it will bring up a login dialog when clicked. Not so intuitive, for a default.

Or, simply leave it always a link, always visible. It will bring up a login dialog when it needs to.

Or just fix the docs.

How to display a link to log in --Kurt Yoder, Fri, 29 Aug 2003 11:13:10 -0700 reply

Simon Michael said:

You need to customize your "wikipage" template and remove the conditional that hides the edit link. If you have time could you
add this to FAQ ?

In general we hide features that aren't available, but this one keeps coming up, and I'm thinking of going back to the very early behaviour - always display the edit link, but crossed out when not available.

I would like to completely hide the editing features, including the append form and the "edit page" link. Then add an html link somewhere with text "log in to edit this page". When the user clicks on this link, she is prompted to log in. Upon doing so, the wiki page is redisplayed with the standard append/edit areas. After this, no further logins are required to edit any of the other pages that are part of this particular wiki. Is it possible to do this?

-- Kurt Yoder Sport & Health network administrator

How to display a link to log in --Simon Michael, Fri, 29 Aug 2003 13:53:39 -0700 reply
Ah, very good. Yes, all you need is to make a link to the login form appear, only when not logged in. Such a code snippet should be easy to find with a little searching. It's something along the lines of:

 <span tal:condition="python:not user.has_role('Authenticated')">
 <a href="login_form">log in</a> to edit this page
 </span>

You'll add this to your Zwiki skin, most likely, by customizing it. I don't know if you've found out how to customize skins yet. Eg if you're in CMF/Plone, go to portal_skins/zwiki_plone/wikipage_view and click customize.

Re: IssueTracker --Simon Michael, Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:33:40 -0700 reply
"Woellert, Kirk D." writes:

<> Hey there. I running out of options so I thought to mail you in desparation. I sorta got the ZWiki IssueTracker working but the rendering is pretty weird. It' hard to describe so I attached a low-res .jpg screenshot. Can you give me any clues as to what might be happening here?

Hi Kirk - thanks for the screenshot. That page is not executing DTML. Alexander Limi added the skins/zwiki_plone/no_dtml.dtml file to disable DTML in all plone/CMF zwikis by default, I expect that's the reason. For now you'll have to remove that file from the filesystem, which will re-enable DTML (in all your CMF/plone zwikis).

When you get past this, check out the plone/tracker item in KnownIssues. It seems not to work out of the box right now though making it work should not be difficult.

I didnt use the discussion list since there was no opportunity to upload the screenshot.

Why.. did the list bounce mail with an attachment ?

This should also work: post your comment without the image, then edit the page and upload the image file.

site outages, tweaks --simon, Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:45:24 -0700 reply
If you saw some proxy errors this morning, it was my fault, restarting for hasty code testing. Also the server became unresponsive during a couple of slow catalog operations, for zopish reasons I don't understand no doubt. Some catalog operations seem to multithread just fine, and others don't.

This wiki now uses TextIndexNG?(2) for it's Title and text indexes (and the title and title_or_id indexes and metadata have been removed). This makes search a bit smarter - eg * wildcards now work. We don't yet use it, but the Title index is now case-sensitive and supports left-side wildcards, which should be useful.

0.22rc3 released --simon, Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:43:11 -0700 reply
I'm not sure how frequently zope.org will update, so squeezing in these:

  • clean up and include latest RecentChanges?, SearchPage? and UserOptions? from zwiki.org
  • new methods recentchanges, search, useroptions provide initial skin-based implementations of these, allowing this functionality to be used if DTML is disabled. The included defaults are DTML method-based, for ease of syncing the latest wiki page versions.
  • RESPONSE is no longer provided to DTML Method skin templates, they should use REQUEST.RESPONSE
  • the Title method is now always provided and is equivalent to pageName
  • zwiki_plone editform: make the convenient alt-s key work again
  • the hasCatalog method is now public

deanspace and drupal --simon, Fri, 29 Aug 2003 17:51:48 -0700 reply
Fascinating writeups of technology/organization being applied in the Howard Dean campaign in the US right now. See, eg,

Britt Blaser's blog: http://www.blaserco.com/blogs/2003/08/24.html

Why to use the Deanspace site kit: http://deanspace.org/node/view/215

The Drupal handbook: http://drupal.org/node/view/253

Tech support in the drupal world: http://drupal.org/node/view/2369

add a comment to the top of the page -- Sat, 30 Aug 2003 15:25:07 -0700 reply
I would like the "add a comment" text to be added to the top of the page and not the bottom so users wouldn't have to scroll in order to get to it. Is this an option. Please help. Email a response to lazerpub@yahoo.com Thanks

add a comment to the top of the page --DeanGoodmanson, Sat, 30 Aug 2003 20:51:53 -0700 reply
If you have access to the Zwiki product code.. See #577 Insert page method

  1. Get it into your Zwiki product instance (please ask if this isn't intuitive)
  2. Modify the "Comment" function to accept a new parameter (in this example I'll call it "prepend"), then when that paremeter is, in this case "true" (or noe "fallse"), call the Insert method instead of Append. (Default the prepend argument to "false") NB: when checking be sure to check for none/null and convert to string.
  3. Edit your site footer so that a hidden field of "prepend" is set to "true".
  4. If you want the comments to be inserted at special point of that page, place the following &lt;a name="insertpt" /> (exactly) into the page.

Note: your choosing a weblog-like reverse chronological view for your comments.

Looking forward to hearing how it works out for you.

(Also, you can put a "Latest Comments" link on a DTML-enabled page or top of the page with the following code:

 <a href="&dtml-URL0#bottom">Latest Comments</a>

catalog hiccup -- Sun, 31 Aug 2003 08:02:45 -0700 reply
Something's up w/ the catalog. IssueTracker titles are off, and the ZWiki page won't render. :-/