Archived GeneralDiscussion from January 2004. Leave comments at GeneralDiscussion.



comments:

0.26 released --SimonMichael, Fri, 02 Jan 2004 02:04:27 -0800 reply
I forgot! Two hours past deadline, here is 0.26. And:

 _                                                                           
| |__   __ _ _ __  _ __  _   _   _ __   _____      __  _   _  ___  __ _ _ __ 
| '_ \ / _` | '_ \| '_ \| | | | | '_ \ / _ \ \ /\ / / | | | |/ _ \/ _` | '__|
| | | | (_| | |_) | |_) | |_| | | | | |  __/\ V  V /  | |_| |  __/ (_| | |   
|_| |_|\__,_| .__/| .__/ \__, | |_| |_|\___| \_/\_/    \__, |\___|\__,_|_|   
            |_|   |_|    |___/                         |___/                 

testing parenting changes --SimonMichael, Sun, 04 Jan 2004 23:52:17 -0800 reply
If you see any problems, please report.

character encoding changed --simon, Fri, 09 Jan 2004 03:40:19 -0800 reply
I've changed this site's character coding from iso-8859-1 to utf-8. This has probably temporarily broken international-character page names and content. See OldI18nDiscussion for more.

zwiki.org has switched to utf-8 --simon, Fri, 09 Jan 2004 03:43:07 -0800 reply
I've changed this site's character encoding from iso-8859-1 to utf-8 (in the wikipage_macros template). This has probably broken all international-character page names and text, which will hopefully not be hard to fix. I expect to include this change in the default skin for 0.27; utf-8 is already used in plone. Any suggestions re migration issues are welcome.

AbbeNormal? -- Tue, 13 Jan 2004 02:44:05 -0800 reply
John Abbe writes at http://ourpla.net/cgi/pikie :

"Goodbye AbbeNormal? the WebLogs?, after more than two years. In the end, it's nothing against WebLogs?, i just haven't found a way to blog and wiki well at the same time, and i miss wikiing. WikiWiki is a different way of thinking, slower, generally less concerned about what happened yesterday, and with blogging it's too easy for me to let myself get dragged into trying to be part of the RecentChanges? of the web. Who wants to be popular?"

OddMuse? -- Tue, 13 Jan 2004 02:45:29 -0800 reply
A multilingual usemod-based wiki engine from Alex Schroeder. http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/oddmuse/What_Is_Oddmuse

font too big ? -- Tue, 13 Jan 2004 03:02:46 -0800 reply
I'm browsing on a different PC (just set up a nice new machine for the parents) and the font on zwiki.org seems bigger than everywhere else. I'm wondering why this is, if the default skin is the same, should I fix, and how ? Any ideas welcome.

page hierarchy code refactored --SimonMichael, Tue, 13 Jan 2004 03:18:35 -0800 reply
I refactored the hierarchy code in Parents.py and elsewhere to allow the hierarchy - which I'm calling the "outline" these days, as it's more general than a simple hierarchy - to be cached in a persistent Outline object, which is stored as an outline attribute of the folder (but does not appear in the ZMI for now).

This allows all hierarchy queries to be answered quickly, and makes the code clearer. I'm hoping it will also reduce delay-causing read & write conflicts - even though it's a single shared object - by reducing catalog activity. Indeed zwiki.org now seems to be performing acceptably with all hierarchy features enabled. For now the old page parents attributes and the folder outline object are maintained in parallel. After 0.27 I'll try dropping the page parents attributes, which should give another performance boost. This will make zwiki pages less self-contained - you'll have to think about this separate outline object as well - but may be worth it.

page hierarchy code refactored --SimonMichael, Tue, 13 Jan 2004 03:22:20 -0800 reply
Cf Parents.py (which might get renamed) and the new Outline.py. As a side effect I think I've fixed an old bug where ZMI operations would not re-catalog a page correctly.

Comments welcome!

Delay in Page Update -- Wed, 14 Jan 2004 09:12:20 -0800 reply
I often want to make a series of changes to a page to get it "just right", or to experiment with a feature, but find that after the first commit of an edit on a page, I have to wait a considerable time before re-entry to the page edit box shows the new text which I know is now on that page. I usually find that the text shown corresponds to a previous version of the page, and then don't want to edit that.

How is a flush done to force update of the page?

Delay in Page Update --Simon Michael, Wed, 14 Jan 2004 09:18:30 -0800 reply
We have an issue or two in the tracker relating to this I think. If you shift-reload the edit form do you see the up-to-date text ? What browser ?

Replying with HTML mail just to see what happens.

Delay in Page Update --DeanG, Wed, 14 Jan 2004 09:18:47 -0800 reply
What browser/os are you using? I think it may have been pinned down, but certainly not in my mind, that there are odd caching behaviours with some browsers.

Delay in Page Update --Greg Lewin, Wed, 14 Jan 2004 09:38:11 -0800 reply
Opera 7.x on Windows 2000.

I haven't yet tried the shift-reload thing - not sure it applies here, but will report back ...

OK, just tried the shift-reload and that seems to do the trick.

... -- Fri, 16 Jan 2004 15:08:32 -0800 reply

no Zwiki test at the Home Depot --n8johnson, Fri, 16 Jan 2004 15:52:40 -0800 reply
All-

I regret to report that my project to test Zwiki for use on the Home Depot's intranet is now halted. After making some good forward progress, I just found out (somehow no one I talked to knew anout it) that the company is about to deploy a proprietary software solution for intranet collaboration called eRoom, as part of a larger package called Documentum from EMC. There is no wiki feature in eRoom, but it will definitely be a lot better than nothing, which is about what we have now. Since eRoom is now the company standard for collaboration, there is no flexibility in our process to allow me to experiment with a wiki, even locally as a test. Believe me, I tried.

I was able to convince some people of the potential value of a wiki to solve a particular set of communication problems we have, so it is now very disappointing to stop the project when I thought I had the momentum I needed. It is ironic that an internal communication breakdown (the fact that I did not learn about the coming eRoom software until now) is responsible for the fact that I can't run a test to try to improve internal communications.

I would prefer to work in an environment where I can experiment with NEW ways of doing things without a cumbersome approval process. I noticed that Gateway's headquarters is nearby. Anyone have any expereience with that company?

Nate Johnson, n_johnson@yahoo.com betterdifferent.com

IssueTracker vandeliZed --DeanG, Tue, 20 Jan 2004 08:16:17 -0800 reply

:-(

ZWiki 0.26 hosed my wiki :( --Bob McElrath?, Tue, 20 Jan 2004 14:14:32 -0800 reply
I tried upgrading to ZWiki 0.26 from 0.23 to discover that the "code refactoring" in the changelog has broken LatexWiki. (I will fix this later) Anyway downgrading back to ZWiki 0.23 has broken my wiki. I get this error (with ZWiki 0.23 after downgrade):

AttributeError?

Any suggestions to bring my wiki back to working order? It appears that ZODB now thinks pages have parents (a new concept in ZWiki 0.24) and the parent is persisting in the database, when in fact no pages should have parents (as was true in 0.23).

If I fix LatexWiki (all my pages are msgstxprelinkdtmlfitissuehtmllatex) does anyone think this problem will go away? Or have I badly damaged my ZODB?

Every time I have upgraded ZWiki I go through some horrible pain like this. (evidince is in the discussion archives :) Can upgrades be made easier? Maybe the solution is to merge LatexWiki with ZWiki so that structural changes propegate to LatexWiki too. Or maybe I should pay more attention to the mailing list... ;)

Cheers, Bob McElrath? [Univ. of California at Davis, Department of Physics]?

LatexWiki 0.22 --Bob McElrath?, Wed, 21 Jan 2004 01:10:52 -0800 reply
Verily I bequeath onto thee: LatexWiki 0.22. It can be obtained at:

http://mcelrath.org/Notes/LatexWiki

ZWiki has been undergoing a number of changes (I'm just trying to keep up here...), and upgrading can be a pain. LatexWiki now requires ZWiki 0.26. I have added the UPGRADE file to the tarball with some instructions I thought might be helpful. If you create a new wiki from scratch you should not have any problems from just following the INSTALL.txt.

To answer my previous question on this list, fixing LatexWiki fixed my Wiki, and I noted that the downgrade problem was indicated in the changelog...

I hope ZWiki will stabilize someday... ;) Any thoughts?

Cheers, Bob McElrath? [Univ. of California at Davis, Department of Physics]?

ZWiki 0.26 hosed my wiki :( --SimonMichael, Wed, 21 Jan 2004 13:35:15 -0800 reply
Hey Bob - thanks for the report and for updating LatexWiki. It's really not surprising you should have to do this, since LW is hooked into Zwiki's rendering system, which is still evolving. It would be less work for you if we included LW in the main codebase. Do you want to do this ?

back in the US --SimonMichael, Wed, 21 Jan 2004 13:39:50 -0800 reply
I'm back in Santa Monica after 5 weeks in Ireland. I should be online more but am also quite focussed on income-generating work, so apologies if replies are slow.

ZWiki 0.26 hosed my wiki :( --Bob McElrath?, Wed, 21 Jan 2004 14:01:06 -0800 reply
SimonMichael [zwiki-wiki@zwiki.org]? wrote:

Hey Bob - thanks for the report and for updating LatexWiki. It's really not surprising you should have to do this, since LW is hooked into Zwiki's rendering system, which is still evolving. It would be less work for you if we included LW in the main codebase. Do you want to do this ?

Well the dependencies are rather involved: LocalFS PIL Ghostscript latex

At the very least, it should fail gracefully if dependencies are not met (and hopefully give the user some message)... Any thoughts?

And I want to do some things which don't make sense to put into ZWiki (i.e. physics-specific referencing and hyperlinking) that I will have to factor out somehow.

I will check with the original authors about merging with ZWiki.

Cheers, Bob McElrath? [Univ. of California at Davis, Department of Physics]?

why is zwiki better than tikiwiki? -- Wed, 21 Jan 2004 18:17:59 -0800 reply

re: why is zwiki better than tikiwiki? --DeanGoodmanson, Wed, 21 Jan 2004 20:57:27 -0800 reply
Short answer: What's your flavor, Zope or PHP?

Please create a TikiWiki? page and elaborate features in TikiWiki? you'd like in ZWiki, or a Zope environment. Looks like TikiWiki? is chock-full of features. I actually didn't think I was at a wiki, but a p*nuke variant w/ a wiki. C

ZWiki 0.26 hosed my wiki :( --Simon Michael, Thu, 22 Jan 2004 10:50:22 -0800 reply

At the very least, it should fail gracefully if dependencies are not met (and hopefully give the user some message)... Any thoughts?

Exactly.. I think it would make sense to bundle latex support as an optional feature which activates when dependencies are met, like RST and fit support.

And I want to do some things which don't make sense to put into ZWiki (i.e. physics-specific referencing and hyperlinking) that I will have to factor out somehow.

Yes I guess we'd want just the latex part.

I will check with the original authors about merging with ZWiki.

Thanks. This would mean assigning copyright to me, at present. If you/they agree it's a good idea, let's get it in there. Or if you prefer to maintain it separately, hopefully the recent page types refactoring will make that a bit easier at least.

ZWiki 0.26 hosed my wiki :( --Simon Michael, Thu, 22 Jan 2004 10:51:55 -0800 reply
PS best of all, if you see any ways to improve modularity and support for "plugins" like this, let me know.

Re: mailin access --Simon Michael, Thu, 22 Jan 2004 11:00:35 -0800 reply
Michael Sanborn wrote:

Actually, ever since I created a ZCatalog, the process of adding new comments has slowed down enormously. It takes about 5 minutes now. Editing a page is unaffected; it takes about 10 seconds. I thought that maybe the problem was that I'd added the indices and metadata marked with an "M" in ZWikiAndZCatalog?, thinking that my wiki will probably be large in a year or so. But I removed those, then cleared the catalog, found the WikiPages? again, and updated the catalog. It's still slower than cold molasses. Any suggestions?

That's interesting. 5 minutes seems a bit excessive. :/ What kind of hardware, and how many wiki pages ?

It's suspicious that edit is still fast. Not long ago I replaced the implementation of comment - it's now an alias for quickcomment, in Editing.py. If you suspect that code is at fault you could try sprinkling it with DLOG statements to see what it's doing.

Did you create the catalog by hand, or use the /setupCatalog method ? If the former try running /setupCatalog to be sure you have all the fields necessary for good performance.

Re: mailin access --Simon Michael, Thu, 22 Jan 2004 11:05:39 -0800 reply
Oh, I see from previous mail that you're running 0.22 and so created the catalog by hand.

Not that it will necessarily help, but any chance of an upgrade ?

Re: LatexWiki 0.22 --Bob McElrath?, Thu, 22 Jan 2004 15:21:26 -0800 reply
(CC'd to both LatexWiki folks and ZWiki folks)

I have received an offer (more than once) from the ZWiki folk to integrate LatexWiki with ZWiki. I am unsure if this is really a good idea. It will make it easier then they decide to do a massive rewrite (as has occured twice since I've been using it), but the existence of LatexWiki kind of forces them to be modular and allow extensions. Their latest "code-refactorization" has made document types into a class, and significantly simplified the LatexWiki __init__.py. Frankly ZWiki 0.26 is very nice (for us). We are far less dependent on their internals and black magic like cook().

Brainstorming advantages of merging:

  1. Being able to go to the ZMI, click "Add ZWiki" and have "LatexWiki" show up as a "Type" alongside "basic" and "dtml" (this would install the LatexTemplate?, stylesheet, and create a LocalFS in addition to the "basic" ZWiki). Thereby vastly simplifying our INSTALL.txt.

    Can we do this while still remaining a separate project? (ZWiki folks?)

  2. Independence from ZWiki rewrites. Basically, the ZWiki folks would have to update LatexWiki along with other classes like ZwikiStxPageType? (XXXXPageType?) Frankly, the current set of XXXXPageType? classes allows us to be very independent, though I am worried about the supportsXXX flags which do not seem to be extensible. (but neither do I know what they are used for)

Disadvantages:

  1. More dependencies for ZWiki. Currently we need latex, ghostscript, PIL, and LocalFS. How can we gracefully inform the user that dependencies are not met? (We can transition away from LocalFS by putting images in the ZODB, but can't get rid of the other three)
  2. I want to pursue non-LatexWiki enhancements to ZWiki (i.e. physics-specific references, discussion forum/mailing list enhancements) that will require ZWiki to be factorized sufficently anyway to make these extensions. See my TODO for some babbling.
  3. Someday LatexWiki will transition to MathML? rendering of Latex input. Again this will be required to live outside ZWiki for a time.

comments/critiques/flames?

Cheers, Bob McElrath? [Univ. of California at Davis, Department of Physics]?

Small UI.py fix --Bob McElrath?, Fri, 23 Jan 2004 00:59:19 -0800 reply
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Small UI.py fix --Bob McElrath?, Fri, 23 Jan 2004 01:04:19 -0800 reply
Heh heh heh.

I have a small UI.py fix and I want to know where to send it.

I have a sourceforge account ("mcelrath") if y'all are brave enough to give me CVS access. :)

Cheers, Bob McElrath? [Univ. of California at Davis, Department of Physics]?

Re: LatexWiki 0.22 --Simon Michael, Fri, 23 Jan 2004 05:38:18 -0800 reply
Bob McElrath? wrote:

ZWiki 0.26 is very nice (for us). We are far less dependent on their internals and black magic like cook().

That's good news!

1. Being able to go to the ZMI, click "Add ZWiki" and have "LatexWiki" show up as a "Type" alongside "basic" and "dtml" (this would install the LatexTemplate?, stylesheet, and create a LocalFS in addition to the "basic" ZWiki). Thereby vastly simplifying our INSTALL.txt.

Can we do this while still remaining a separate project? (ZWiki folks?)

Yes certainly. See if WikiTemplates helps. You can ship a preconfigured wiki on the filesystem for installation in ZWiki/content, or as a .zexp for installation in Control_Panel/Products/ZWiki. I believe you can also give it a script/external method to do any custom setup, such as creating a localfs.

am worried about the supportsXXX flags which do not seem to be extensible. (but neither do I know what they are used for)

Just generic features which a page type may want to turn on or off.

ghostscript, PIL, and LocalFS. How can we gracefully inform the user that dependencies are not met?

In the case of RST, Zwiki gives a message in the event log at zope startup, and in the browser any time someone tries to view a page in RST mode. Plone does similar with more polish.

2. I want to pursue non-LatexWiki enhancements to ZWiki (i.e. physics-specific references, discussion forum/mailing list enhancements) that will require ZWiki to be factorized sufficently anyway to make these extensions. See my TODO for some babbling.

Ok, will do

It's good that this is causing us to look at refactoring and moving towards cleaner plugin interfaces and simpler installation, so I'm also happy to keep it separate and continue working on that aspect. The main thing is to avoid unnecessary work.

> I have a sourceforge account ("mcelrath") if y'all are brave enough to > give me CVS access. :)

Done! :)

new access keys --simon, Fri, 23 Jan 2004 05:47:58 -0800 reply
I've added more access keys (source ), changed some old ones and made them available everywhere. Hit alt-0 to see the list at QuickReference. (alt-0 works only on this site - I want it to display a built-in list instead of coming to zwiki.org, any takers ?)

Bob's latex wiki --simon, Fri, 23 Jan 2004 05:58:34 -0800 reply
Not sure if we link to this already - http://mcelrath.org/Notes . Nice! This and TonyRossini's are the two science zwikis I know about.

If you want, you could delete the old skin templates and enable show_subtopics and show_navlinks folder properties for a quick facelift - I'd be interested to know if it helps.

Bob's latex wiki --A.J. Rossini, Fri, 23 Jan 2004 07:14:26 -0800 reply
zwiki-wiki@zwiki.org (simon) writes:

Not sure if we link to this already - http://mcelrath.org/Notes . Nice! This and TonyRossini's are the two science zwikis I know about.

And it's much better
I had LaTeXWiki? running before, it's pretty slick. Need to do that again!

--TonyRossini

Bob's latex wiki --A.J. Rossini, Fri, 23 Jan 2004 07:33:30 -0800 reply
rossini@blindglobe.net (A.J. Rossini) writes:

zwiki-wiki@zwiki.org (simon) writes:
Not sure if we link to this already - http://mcelrath.org/Notes . Nice! This and TonyRossini's are the two science zwikis I know about.

And it's much better
I had LaTeXWiki? running before, it's pretty slick. Need to do that again!

To illustrate, what I'd love to do is wholesale convert my ancient course notes to being wiki-fied using LaTeXWiki? for the math... i.e.

http://www.analytics.washington.edu/~rossini/courses/

and the 2 intro "text books"/"course notes".

best,

--TonyRossini

Bob's latex wiki --simon, Fri, 23 Jan 2004 09:11:12 -0800 reply
Bob, do you think MathML? is the modern, easier to install successor to latex for wiki users ? Or is it too limited ? Could I start writing mathml right here ?

Re: LatexWiki 0.22 --Bob McElrath?, Fri, 23 Jan 2004 09:11:50 -0800 reply
Simon Michael [zwiki-wiki@zwiki.org]? wrote:

Yes certainly. See if WikiTemplates helps. You can ship a preconfigured wiki on the filesystem for installation in ZWiki/content, or as a .zexp for installation in Control_Panel/Products/ZWiki. I believe you can also give it a script/external method to do any custom setup, such as creating a localfs.

Do you know how to give it a script? If I put a python/dtml method in a folder, then I have to load a URL to get it to run, no? Any idea how to get some code run when it is added?

If we switch to Ape we can maybe avoid running a python method, but Ape is a bitch to install and just gives me errors right now. (With LocalFS, we need to mkdir and I think a zope object is all that is needed for Ape)

In the case of RST, Zwiki gives a message in the event log at zope startup, and in the browser any time someone tries to view a page in RST mode. Plone does similar with more polish.

BTW, I have investigated RST for LatexWiki (notes here: TODO) and I unfortunately don't think LatexWiki will ever be able to use it, because it already uses a backslash and dollar sign as delimiters. Of course other syntaxes for latex are possible, but my goal is to make it as simple as possible for non-wiki experts (i.e. my physics collaborators and students) to add things that work.

> I have a sourceforge account ("mcelrath") if y'all are brave enough to > give me CVS access. :)

Done! :)

Awesome thanks!

Is someone paying attention to the CVS log? Since I'm new at this I would kind of prefer to send a patch somewhere, so someone more knowledgable than me looks at it and decides it's right.

Cheers, Bob McElrath? [Univ. of California at Davis, Department of Physics]?

mathml support --simon, Fri, 23 Jan 2004 09:19:19 -0800 reply
No (see MathMLTests).

Re: LatexWiki 0.22 --simon, Fri, 23 Jan 2004 09:31:09 -0800 reply
I don't have a working example, but check manage_addZWikiWeb in ZWikiWeb?.py. If your wiki template folder is named "latexwiki" and it finds a pythonscript or external method named "latexwiki_config" (where ? in /Control_Panel/Products/Zwiki I'm guessing), it will be called with the new_id and new_title parameters. Sorry, I'm not sure what self is in that context, you may need to experiment.

Yes I keep an eye on cvs activity.. when sourceforge is up.. but feel free to post any patches here or on one of the dev pages for review. NB I have a bunch of changes to check in from yesterday, will do that soon.

Bob's latex wiki --Bob McElrath?, Fri, 23 Jan 2004 10:16:47 -0800 reply
simon [zwiki-wiki@zwiki.org]? wrote:

Bob, do you think MathML? is the modern, easier to install successor to latex for wiki users ? Or is it too limited ? Could I start writing mathml right here ?

No. It requires properly a formed XML document, and the right browser. Right now with mozilla the user must hand-install a bunch of fonts to get it working (no distribution -- not even debian unstable -- has these fonts). I was playing with this yesterday and in my mozilla at work it looks awesome (I installed the fonts). Check it:

http://pear.math.pitt.edu/cgi-bin/itexCGI.py

The tools itex2MML and tth together will convert latex to MathML? in a very similar way to LatexWiki, and someday this will be awesome to convert to. But for now, no one has a browser that will display it. Also from the itex page:

"Itex is a dialect of Latex math. Why not use plain latex? Because some aspects of latex do not fit well with the structure of MathML?."

So some things I'm doing currently (diagrams, tables, etc) will just not work with a latex -> MathML? converter. :(

Cheers, Bob McElrath? [Univ. of California at Davis, Department of Physics]?

Bob's latex wiki --A.J. Rossini, Fri, 23 Jan 2004 10:33:35 -0800 reply
zwiki-wiki@zwiki.org (simon) writes:

Bob, do you think MathML? is the modern, easier to install successor to latex for wiki users ? Or is it too limited ? Could I start writing mathml right here ?

I'm not Bob, but compared to LaTeX?, MathML? tends to be a bit more obtuse and hard to write. Ideally, we'd end up there, it's getting easier to view and translate in and out of. But I don't think it's quite ready in general yet.

At one point I'd used one of the converters to generate mathml from LaTeX? in a similar fashion (read: gratuitous code borrowing) from LaTeXWiki?, and it worked so-so. That was 2 years or so ago, though.

--TonyRossini

TWiki (was Bob's latex wiki) --simon, Fri, 23 Jan 2004 10:58:41 -0800 reply
Thanks for the details, good to know.

On another topic, http://freedesktop.org is the nicest example of a TWiki site I've seen. In zwiki-speak, it's several wikis side-by-side (Main, Standards, Software, Cairo etc.). Look, TWiki does page hierarchy .

file renames --SimonMichael, Sat, 24 Jan 2004 15:40:11 -0800 reply
Sourceforge is back up and I'm doing a bunch of checkins. I believe I'd like to rename

If you see any problems with this, speak up.

file renames --SimonMichael, Sat, 24 Jan 2004 16:43:44 -0800 reply
I guess "macros" would be asking for trouble within page templates. Damn.

tracker repair --SimonMichael, Sun, 25 Jan 2004 08:19:36 -0800 reply
I saw the scrubbed IssueTracker page. Once all the dtml had been removed, Zwiki switched to the skin-based version, so I wouldn't have noticed except it seemed a bit cleaner than usual. :) However I wanted the page-based version back as it has some local links.

There's more than one way to do it. I went to full history first, but it had too many edits, I couldn't be sure which one was good, so I just copied the customized section (appreciated those marker comments).

Next I thought I'd delete the page and let /setupTracker?pages=1 create a fresh one. When it didn't finish quickly I remembered that this would cause all 700 issues to be reparented somewhere else, which I didn't want. To stop it I logged in quickly and restarted zope (could have used the ZMI I guess); it had only got up to issue 130 and happily the whole transaction was rolled back.

So I kept the existing page and just replaced the contents. It has custom permission and subtopics settings too, now that I think of it, so this was the easier way.

warning - unexpected rename issue --SimonMichael, Sun, 25 Jan 2004 09:38:10 -0800 reply
Those of you who have been running the recent cvs code (since last release) - after upgrading to the latest your pages may break due to the fact that your cached wiki outline object has a dependency on it's original module filename - after renaming Parents.py all it's methods disappear! This surprised me. Calling /updateWikiOutline or /upgradeAll should fix it. Success, failure reports welcome.

0.27rc1 released --SimonMichael, Sun, 25 Jan 2004 11:08:39 -0800 reply
I'm interested in migration issues, performance, and access keys (hit alt-0 or cmd-0 for a list) - I find them very useful in mozilla but do they do something reasonable in IE and other browsers ? Note the upgrade notes

Re: Zope environment -- Sun, 25 Jan 2004 23:42:02 -0800 reply
I like Zwiki (the version installed at Reform Society) but unfortunately I had a lot of problems installing it on my computer to run it locally. However, I would be extremely happy to help with the documentation (in French and in English) if some efforts could be made towards making a local version of Zwiki that could run exclusively in Python. -- Robert Abitbol

Re: Zope environment --SimonMichael, Sun, 25 Jan 2004 23:47:35 -0800 reply
Hi Robert; ah, I see what you mean. Zwiki is thoroughly dependent on Zope; I've no plans to work on a python-only version (at present) (interesting thought though).

Bob's latex wiki --Bob McElrath?, Mon, 26 Jan 2004 12:45:32 -0800 reply
simon [zwiki-wiki@zwiki.org]? wrote:

Not sure if we link to this already - http://mcelrath.org/Notes . Nice! This and TonyRossini's are the two science zwikis I know about.

Glad you like it. ;)

If you want, you could delete the old skin templates and enable show_subtopics and show_navlinks folder properties for a quick facelift - I'd be interested to know if it helps.

I did that, and I don't really like it. While no dtml is simpler, it is also impossible to customize. I like the new add comment box with subject, the bar at the top is...well I'm ambivalent about that. I'll leave it like this for a day or two before putting it back, if you want to look.

I don't like that the page icon/page name/search box bar is the same color as the page. Perhaps it should be given its own CSS class so that it can be customized.

Bugs:

With show_subtopics on, the list of subtopics includes pages which the user does not have permission to view.

Also the new search facility returns results from pages that the user does not have permission to view. (which is better than returning an error as it did before, but still wrong)

Where does one find a list of available properties for the wiki?

Running Extensions/Install.py:install from not-within a plone site gives a totally opaque error message. I modified http://www.zwiki.org/ZwikiAndPloneCMF to reflect this.

In general I have this problem with Zope/ZWiki/Plone/CMF: if you do something wrong you get a python traceback that gives you no useful information on what you did wrong. In this particular instance, the existance of portal_types should be checked before trying to get it.

How can I logout?

Cheers, Bob McElrath? [Univ. of California at Davis, Department of Physics]?

Shell access? --Bob McElrath?, Mon, 26 Jan 2004 14:30:26 -0800 reply
I got the formatting/sizing working in Plone, but it requires a LatexWiki small code update, and this stylesheet: http://mcelrath.org/Plone/ploneCustom.css (probably still needs some tweaks -- comments look odd for instance) Could I convince y'all to give me a shell account on latexwiki.com so I can do this kind of stuff, or would you prefer I just feed you updates?

http://mcelrath.org/LatexWiki-0.24.tar.gz

I have a Plone running now: http://mcelrath.org/Plone/SandBox (which is a copy of Notes) but I need to run /clearCache on all pages. Anyone know how to do that?

Cheers, Bob McElrath? [Univ. of California at Davis, Department of Physics]?

Bob's latex wiki --Simon Michael, Wed, 28 Jan 2004 16:03:38 -0800 reply
Bob McElrath? wrote:

I did that, and I don't really like it.

Fair enough!

While no dtml is simpler, it is also impossible to customize.

Yes, if you want easiest tweaking, keep the dtml pages of course. /setupDtmlPages would install the latest versions if needed (after removing the old).

I like the new add comment box with subject, the bar at the top is...well I'm ambivalent about that. I'll leave it like this for a day or two before putting it back, if you want to look.

In mozilla, the page name is small, for some reason.. I think you customized the styles ?

Re the bar - commonplace and plone helped persuade me that the consistency and discoverability all those links offer, to someone visiting yet another strange site with strange functions, make them a worthwhile default. What would you rather see ? I'd like to see more strange and wonderful layouts.

I don't like that the page icon/page name/search box bar is the same color as the page. Perhaps it should be given its own CSS class so that it can be customized.

I'm not sure what you mean here ? Separate CSS class sounds like a good idea though.

> With show_subtopics on, the list of subtopics includes pages which > the user does not have permission to view. > > Also the new search facility returns results from pages that the > user does not have permission to view. (which is better than > returning an error as it did before, but still wrong)

You should know none of the code expects to deal with restricted view or access contents permission on certain pages. I haven't felt that was worth the effort given the complexity it brings for users, I'd rather start a new wiki (perhaps a subwiki) for private pages.

Where does one find a list of available properties for the wiki?

QuickReference

Running Extensions/Install.py:install from not-within a plone site gives a totally opaque error message. I modified http://www.zwiki.org/ZwikiAndPloneCMF to reflect this.

Hmm, that's not something I'd have thought of. Is that a likely thing to happen ? What made you do so ? Oh, I think the ZwikiAndPloneCMF? instructions misled. When using the old-style install script I recommended creating it in the root folder so that you don't have to do this for every cmf site - but you call it in the context of the site, see the instructions further down. Sounds like this should be made clearer.

In general I have this problem with Zope/ZWiki/Plone/CMF: if you do something wrong you get a python traceback that gives you no useful information on what you did wrong. In this particular instance, the existance of portal_types should be checked before trying to get it.

I don't know how often this will happen to people in future, but good idea, it would be nice to handle this in a smarter way. Are there other situations like this which should be improved ?

AFAIK most tracebacks come from custom skin templates, and I've been careful to catch most of these and display them in the web browser - so the user can at least easily report the details - and with (a very little) extra advice on what they might do to fix it. However I was thinking of removing all that, since this prevents the normal (superior) traceback logging in ErrorLog/EventLog and hinders debugging.

I think you also get tracebacks for entering bad DTML code.

Ideas welcome.

How can I logout?

With basic authentication the only way is to try to access something you don't have permission for, at which point the browser should lose it's authentication. Or you could install a CookieCrumbler? which should allow you to logout via some url, as with cmf/plone.

Thanks for all this feedback, it helps move us forward.

Shell access? --Simon Michael, Wed, 28 Jan 2004 16:05:28 -0800 reply

I have a Plone running now: http://mcelrath.org/Plone/SandBox (which is a copy of Notes) but I need to run /clearCache on all pages. Anyone know how to do that?

/upgradeAll will do it.

Bob's latex wiki --Bob McElrath?, Wed, 28 Jan 2004 17:04:02 -0800 reply
Simon Michael [zwiki-wiki@zwiki.org]? wrote:

You should know none of the code expects to deal with restricted view or access contents permission on certain pages. I haven't felt that was worth the effort given the complexity it brings for users, I'd rather start a new wiki (perhaps a subwiki) for private pages.

Hmm good idea!

Hmm, that's not something I'd have thought of. Is that a likely thing to happen ? What made you do so ? Oh, I think the ZwikiAndPloneCMF? instructions misled. When using the old-style install script I recommended creating it in the root folder so that you don't have to do this for every cmf site - but you call it in the context of the site, see the instructions further down. Sounds like this should be made clearer.

The instructions say you can run the method from the root folder. This only works if the root folder itself is a plone. (which, for me, it isn't) My plone is /Plone. Ah yeah context...

Isn't there a way to hook into Plone creation without making the user do it manually? Perhaps "Add a ZWiki/Plone" button that would first create a Plone and then register the ZWiki stuff?

I'm wrestling with this for LatexWiki as well, which is a bitch to install, currently.

I don't know how often this will happen to people in future, but good idea, it would be nice to handle this in a smarter way. Are there other situations like this which should be improved ?

Oh many, but I haven't been writing them down. Since I'm hacking the code, usually it's due to me doing something dumb, and I try not to complain to other people when I do something dumb. :)

This time I followed the instructions though. ;)

Cheers, Bob McElrath? [Univ. of California at Davis, Department of Physics]?

MathML?/ZWiki --Bob McElrath?, Thu, 29 Jan 2004 03:31:55 -0800 reply
I got MathML? working with ZWiki. http://mcelrath.org/Notes/SandBoxMathML Note this is one page created with itex, not dynamically generated like LatexWiki...

ZWiki must:

  1. create properly-formed xml (+ escape nasties in user text)
  2. send a Content-Type: text/xml header
  3. Have the appropriate doctype (see header of the above page)

I'll check in some minor fixes for #1 tomorrow. The other two may generally break ZWiki.

...but MathML?/ZWiki is possible...

Cheers, Bob McElrath? [Univ. of California at Davis, Department of Physics]?

MathML?/ZWiki --SimonMichael, Thu, 29 Jan 2004 09:37:11 -0800 reply
Nice!!

I didn't notice any problems caused by the content-type/doctype, mozilla was unfazed, what would we expect from other browsers ? Perhaps you'd enable them with a use_mathml folder property.

MathML?/ZWiki --Bob McElrath?, Thu, 29 Jan 2004 09:53:39 -0800 reply
SimonMichael [zwiki-wiki@zwiki.org]? wrote:

Nice!!

I didn't notice any problems caused by the content-type/doctype, mozilla was unfazed, what would we expect from other browsers ?

I have no idea...haven't gotten that far. ;) But currently, Mozilla is the only MathML?-aware browser AFAIK.

Perhaps you'd enable them with a use_mathml folder property.

I hacked the ZWiki code and added a zwiki_content_type property to the page with: RESPONSE['content-type']?=getattr(self,zwiki_content_type,text/html) in ZWikiPage.__call__. Same idea as use_mathml.

DTMLDocument defines the property/method content_type...and I can't figure out how to override it...but that would be the way to go. (Try FrontPage/contenttype ...) BTW I think the RESPONSE.setHeader you're using in ZWikiPage.__call_ doesn't work...DTMLDocument is overriding it with RESPONSE['content-type']? which it sets to text/html.

Obviously, this is a hack. If we wanted MathML? functionality, ZWiki would have to know about it at a more fundamental level (Structured Text + MathML pagetype?)

I'm not proposing to integrate this, I was just playing around. (I made the claim I could hack-up LatexWiki/MathML? in a weekend and I wanted to see if it was true...and it looks like it is)

Cheers, Bob McElrath? [Univ. of California at Davis, Department of Physics]?

0.27rc2 released --SimonMichael, Thu, 29 Jan 2004 23:30:43 -0800 reply
- access key change: f front page, b backlinks

preferences bug -- Fri, 30 Jan 2004 02:42:10 -0800 reply
After installing the latest ZWiki (0.27.0rc2) the user preferences doesn't work. It could'be repaired by replacing part of this form tag from skins\default\useroptionsdtml.dtml:

  <form action="&dtml-page_url;" 

with this one:

  <form action="&dtml-page_url;/useroptions" 

As UserOptions? by default has no corresponding page, then dtml-page_url was replaced by the FrontPage url. And the POST doesn't worked.

preferences bug --SimonMichael, Fri, 30 Jan 2004 09:45:31 -0800 reply
Thanks! Fixed for 0.27rc3.

checkins --SimonMichael, Fri, 30 Jan 2004 10:00:14 -0800 reply
Hi Bob - thanks for the fixes. I'm confused about this one , change comment "Allows an imported stylesheet to be used. (stylesheet is a ZWikiPage when imported rather than a PageTemplate or DtmlMethod?)". What do you mean by imported ?

checkins --Bob McElrath?, Fri, 30 Jan 2004 10:16:27 -0800 reply
SimonMichael [zwiki-wiki@zwiki.org]? wrote:

Hi Bob - thanks for the fixes. I'm confused about this one 2=1.51 , change comment "Allows an imported stylesheet to be used. (stylesheet is a ZWikiPage when imported rather than a PageTemplate or DtmlMethod?)". What do you mean by imported ?

I created a directory with a bunch of files that are a template for a LatexWiki site, including one called stylesheet.css, and putting those files in a new directory ZWiki/content/latexwiki. Then "Add ZWiki -> type:latexwiki" and without this fix you will find that you get a zope error when trying to access the stylesheet, because ZWiki imported it as a ZWiki Page, isFile is false, and the code tries to run form.index_html.

Maybe another fix would be to not import .css files as ZWiki Pages, but the above seems reasonable because a user might also create stylesheet.css as a ZWiki Page and it should work.

Cheers, Bob McElrath? [Univ. of California at Davis, Department of Physics]?

regexps --SimonMichael, Fri, 30 Jan 2004 10:31:54 -0800 reply
Ok, with bobs latest I am officially Scared Of The Regexps.

Speed sounds good, do all these ?: make a difference or is it just recommended practice ? We probably don't need it in (?:?L) do we ?

But tests are passing, so press on! We could move html entity matching to markLinksIn later perhaps, and make that page type-specific.

checkins -- Fri, 30 Jan 2004 10:37:21 -0800 reply

Maybe another fix would be to not import .css files as ZWiki Pages, but

I think that's the proper fix, in addZWikiWebFromFs perhaps.

the above seems reasonable because a user might also create stylesheet.css as a ZWiki Page and it should work.

I did intend that.. I thought the original code did it.

regexps --Bob McElrath?, Fri, 30 Jan 2004 10:43:01 -0800 reply
SimonMichael [zwiki-wiki@zwiki.org]? wrote:

Ok, with bobs latest 1=1.47&r2=1.48 I am officially Scared Of The Regexps.

Laf. For a good time, take a look at my super regex-heavy project FilterProxy?.

Speed sounds good, do all these ?: make a difference or is it just recommended practice ? We probably don't need it in (?:?L) do we ?

Oops that's a typo. Should just be (?L) of course. I see you checked in a fix about 3 seconds before I did :). I didn't catch it either because it worked! ;)

The ?: don't affect anything except getting out the groups via .groups(). The regex engine has to actually copy expressions grouped with () to a variable so they can be accessed, at the time the match is performed. Using ?: saves this step if you know you don't want to access the group as a variable.

But tests are passing, so press on! We could move html entity matching to markLinksIn later perhaps, and make that page type-specific.

Not sure what you mean here. I was trying to not match HTML entities as WikiName's...

Cheers, Bob McElrath? [Univ. of California at Davis, Department of Physics]?

regexps --Bob McElrath?, Fri, 30 Jan 2004 11:03:58 -0800 reply
Bob McElrath? [zwiki-wiki@zwiki.org]? wrote:

But tests are passing, so press on! We could move html entity matching to markLinksIn later perhaps, and make that page type-specific.

Not sure what you mean here. I was trying to not match HTML entities as WikiName's...

Ah I see. There are several places that use the wikiname regex, and markLinksIn uses anywikilinkexpr which would disallow &http://mcelrath.org; which while not harmful, is probably not desirable. Anyhoo...

BTW thanks for keeping any eye on CVS. I feel like a hog poking around the inside of a watch. I wouldn't claim to "understand" the ZWiki code at this point. :)

Cheers, Bob McElrath? [Univ. of California at Davis, Department of Physics]?

empty or missing docstring --Bob McElrath?, Fri, 30 Jan 2004 11:15:42 -0800 reply
I just upgraded to CVS from 0.26 and I get "empty or missing docstring" on all my pages. /upgradeAll and /clearCache don't fix it.

What's wrong/how do I fix it?

Thanks, Bob McElrath? [Univ. of California at Davis, Department of Physics]?

regexps --SimonMichael, Fri, 30 Jan 2004 11:22:21 -0800 reply

I feel like a hog poking around the inside of a watch. I wouldn't claim to "understand" the ZWiki code at this point.

Just like me when I started poking at DTMLDocument to see if I could make it link. :)

I recommend setting things up so you can run the tests at any time, if you haven't already. We need a how-to for this, and for adding new tests.

empty or missing docstring --SimonMichael, Fri, 30 Jan 2004 11:25:51 -0800 reply
I'd expected this, but upgradeAll should have fixed it. What's the Zwiki traceback in your ErrorLog or EventLog ?

empty or missing docstring --Bob McElrath?, Fri, 30 Jan 2004 11:34:43 -0800 reply
SimonMichael [zwiki-wiki@zwiki.org]? wrote:

I'd expected this, but upgradeAll should have fixed it. What's the Zwiki traceback in your ErrorLog or EventLog ?

Not very informative:

And in event log:

2004-01-30T11:34:14 ERROR(200) ZODB Couldn't load state for \x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x1cg Traceback (innermost last): File /usr/lib/zope/lib/python/ZODB/Connection.py, line 554, in setstate File /usr/lib/zope/lib/python/ZODB/Connection.py, line 590, in _set_ghost_state AttributeError?: module object has no attribute ZwikiLatexPageType

Cheers, Bob McElrath? [Univ. of California at Davis, Department of Physics]?

empty or missing docstring --Simon Michael, Fri, 30 Jan 2004 11:48:56 -0800 reply
Hmm, no traceback at zope startup time ?

Or did you rename the ZwikiLatexPageType? class, or it's file ?

Try /updateWikiOutline as well, just in case.

If not, are you able to create a wiki page in new folder ?

empty or missing docstring --Bob McElrath?, Fri, 30 Jan 2004 12:06:35 -0800 reply
Simon Michael [zwiki-wiki@zwiki.org]? wrote:

Hmm, no traceback at zope startup time ?

Whoops, missed that in the scroll.

You removed Utils.DLOG, which I was using...

Cheers, Bob McElrath? [Univ. of California at Davis, Department of Physics]?

empty or missing docstring --Simon Michael, Fri, 30 Jan 2004 12:14:44 -0800 reply
Aha. It's Utils.BLATHER now.

empty or missing docstring --Bob McElrath?, Fri, 30 Jan 2004 12:14:53 -0800 reply
Bob McElrath? [zwiki-wiki@zwiki.org]? wrote:

You removed Utils.DLOG, which I was using...

... I have changed to use zLOG and all is well.

Is there anything else in this list that maybe I shouldn't be dependent on?

from ReplaceInlineLatex? import replaceInlineLatex from Products import ZWiki # to get __version__ from Products.ZWiki import ZWikiPage from Products.ZWiki.Utils import html_quote from Products.ZWiki.Regexps import protected_line, interwikilink, wikilink from Products.ZWiki.ZWikiPage import thunk_substituter from Products.ZWiki.PageTypes? import ZwikiStxPageType?,MIDSECTIONMARKER,yes,no from Products.ZWiki.Defaults import ALLOWED_PAGE_TYPES,ALLOWED_PAGE_TYPES_IN_PLONE from Products.ZWiki.Admin import PAGE_TYPE_UPGRADES from OFS.DTMLDocument import DTMLDocument from urllib import quote,unquote import zLOG import string,re

Cheers, Bob McElrath? [Univ. of California at Davis, Department of Physics]?

Dialogue --Simon Michael, Fri, 30 Jan 2004 12:53:15 -0800 reply
Found via Bill Seitz while checking John Abbe's NCDD wiki progress:

David Bohm and others on Dialogue as a means to clarify thinking. Wikipedia has more.

Re: OOo? Documentation in Plone --Simon Michael, Fri, 30 Jan 2004 18:43:54 -0800 reply
FYI.. I just sent this to plone-users, see the original post for more.

Have a good weekend, all.

Simon Michael wrote:

Daniel Carrera wrote:
The idea of Wiki was to make it very easy for people to contribute. By lowering the barrier for contribution I hope to engage hordes of volunteers to write fantastic documentation. :)

The draw back of Wiki is that it is not that great for maintaining consistency or continuity. That's why I was thinking of using Wikis as "incubators" to get chapters started.

Hi Daniel,

I'm interested in this problem too. I think you're on the right track!

There's a widespread line of thinking that goes "too open and too simple therefore low quality, we must have more control and quality will go up". I don't agree with that logic.

Whether in plone or not, I'd ask what is the simplest way to add consistency/continuity/quality to the broad base of content you're gathering in the wiki.

I think you can do a lot with one or more motivated wiki gardeners. Part of the problem is we are still learning how to "garden" effectively (maybe involve some librarians ?) Zwiki's support for this is improving.

You can encourage a certain consistency of layout and style by using CSS, by restricting the zwiki page types, by providing attractive examples for people to copy.

For transitioning to more static content, you could give the gardeners manage access and let them turn off edit permission when a page reaches "polished" quality. Regulations are an older zwiki feature, currently in cobwebs, which allowed anyone to do this. You could add a one-line hack to restrict edit permission based on a page's position in the hierarchy, name, or content. Another possibility is adding a rating or colour-coding system to help identify good content. This doesn't necessarily mean Zwiki product changes, you could do it in the skins, in dtml, with wiki badges.. lots of options, some of them very low-tech.

Just some ideas - regards, -Simon

Re: OOo? Documentation in Plone --Bob McElrath?, Fri, 30 Jan 2004 19:49:56 -0800 reply
Ok, that's it. I can't take it anymore. I'm gonna fix mailin.

Besides, everyone wants to go drinking tomorrow.

Simon Michael [zwiki-wiki@zwiki.org]? wrote:

FYI.. I just sent this to plone-users, see the original post for more.

Have a good weekend, all.

Simon Michael wrote: > Daniel Carrera wrote: > >> The idea of Wiki was to make it very easy for people to contribute. >> By lowering the barrier for contribution I hope to engage hordes of >> volunteers to write fantastic documentation. :) >> >> The draw back of Wiki is that it is not that great for maintaining >> consistency or continuity. That's why I was thinking of using Wikis >> as "incubators" to get chapters started. > > > Hi Daniel, > > I'm interested in this problem too. I think you're on the right track! > > There's a widespread line of thinking that goes "too open and too simple > therefore low quality, we must have more control and quality will go > up". I don't agree with that logic. > > Whether in plone or not, I'd ask what is the simplest way to add > consistency/continuity/quality to the broad base of content you're > gathering in the wiki. > > I think you can do a lot with one or more motivated wiki gardeners. Part > of the problem is we are still learning how to "garden" effectively > (maybe involve some librarians ?) Zwiki's support for this is improving. > > You can encourage a certain consistency of layout and style by using > CSS, by restricting the zwiki page types, by providing attractive > examples for people to copy. > > For transitioning to more static content, you could give the gardeners > manage access and let them turn off edit permission when a page reaches > "polished" quality. Regulations are an older zwiki feature, currently in > cobwebs, which allowed anyone to do this. You could add a one-line hack > to restrict edit permission based on a page's position in the hierarchy, > name, or content. Another possibility is adding a rating or > colour-coding system to help identify good content. This doesn't > necessarily mean Zwiki product changes, you could do it in the skins, in > dtml, with wiki badges.. lots of options, some of them very low-tech. > > Just some ideas - regards, > -Simon

-- forwarded from http://zwiki.org/GeneralDiscussion#msg401B1620.5040909@joyful.com

Cheers, Bob McElrath? [Univ. of California at Davis, Department of Physics]?


Archived GeneralDiscussion from January 2004. Leave comments at GeneralDiscussion.