comments:

templates again --Simon Michael, Tue, 01 Nov 2005 08:21:24 -0800 reply
A follow up to last month's templates thread.

I'd like to agree on some standard terms to help us when discussing template-like things. Last time, we wrote:

     * Skin templates - the ZPTs? (zope page templates), dtml methods, 
files and whatnot, for customizing the skin ?
     * Page templates specifically ? Ie you're seeing places where ZPTs? 
are not allowed or not used ?
     * moin-style template pages ? Where you can set up sample pages to 
help you create new ones
     * wikipedia-style templates (macros) ? Which make it easy to 
transclude common content into many pages ?
     * what I have at times called wiki templates ? Ie "basic" and any 
other pre-made wikis installed for use in the Add ZWiki form ?
     * customized pages that use wiki pages as a template

Here's a start - any comments ?:

Template pages may be

templates again --simon, Tue, 01 Nov 2005 08:28:21 -0800 reply
On second thoughts "static" and "dynamic" is confusing as they might also refer to inclusion vs. transclusion (or dtml pages) so I'd probably just use text templates/template pages, which may or may not be parameterized.

templates again --simon, Tue, 01 Nov 2005 08:38:05 -0800 reply
An idea we didn't discuss for template pages - offer them based on the page hierarchy:

 (07:00:41) wbell_: Q: Thinking about building hierarchical wiki for a charitable organisation. When user adds a page to the one called "clients" it would not be blank; rather it would be a form to be completed and the fields from the form would be deposited in the linked page. Anyone have any suggestions?
 (07:08:56) sm-afk: hi wbell
 (07:09:21) sm-afk: we last discussed that feature around http://zwiki.org/UserDiscussion200509#msgdh1oq0$4o1$1@sea.gmane.org ("moin-style template pages")
 (07:09:41) sm-afk: we didn't consider having it depend on the hierarchy 
 (07:10:08) sm-afk: how/where would you specify the content for new pages ?
 (07:10:52) sm-afk: wbell_, I should say
 (07:12:50) sm-afk: random idea: you could create a child page named SomethingTemplate
 (07:13:26) sm-afk: then modify renderLink to add a ?text= argument to the ? links
 (07:14:18) sm-afk: using the content of the parent page's child named *Template 

 (07:42:30) sm-afk: more hints:
 (07:42:30) sm-afk: def templatePage(self): 
 (07:42:30) sm-afk:   templates = [p for p in self.childrenAsList() if p.endsWith('Template')]
 (07:42:30) sm-afk:   return templates and self.pageWithName(templates[0]) or None
 (07:42:30) sm-afk: it moved.. ZWikiPage.py line 650.. "...&text=%s..." % self.templatePage().text()

Bill Bell is exploring this.

templates again --simon, Tue, 01 Nov 2005 08:44:04 -0800 reply
Next steps in this area: I think someone should find/update/create/gather a page for further development & discussion of the template pages feature. Either a wishlist issue (PEP or PLIP-style, won't get lost) or a page in the DesignNotes area (easier to evolve and reorganize).

templates again --TomPurl, Tue, 01 Nov 2005 09:50:05 -0800 reply
Here's the new page:

Please feel free to change the title or whatever you think works best.

release delay --Simon Michael, Tue, 01 Nov 2005 14:12:08 -0800 reply
I'll tackle the next release on wednesday or thursday I think.

pending, pending --Simon Michael, Thu, 03 Nov 2005 14:22:06 -0800 reply
I had a partial disk crash yesterday and spent most of the day recovering/reinstalling.

Zwiki is building up a head of steam and actual action may be the result. I've been holding out for a full day of zwiki hacking, but if that doesn't happen asap I'll have to just make a start. Merge patches, update release notes, release.

Even after doing this monthly for a couple of years, I notice the process still feels offputting when I've been away for a couple of weeks. It's still not quite the push-one-button process I've always intended.

What raises the perceived energy/time required to do a release ? The release notes, in general, and the announcement mail in particular - I always have the desire to write a better news summary. The urge not to release without a fix for the latest prominent bug or two. Similarly, the desire to have at least something new in a release. The need to investigate the patch submission process - why can I no longer forward darcs patch mails from others directly to the repo ? Unclarity about what more I need to do with a new contributor agreement I've been working on. Basically, anything that involves writing or irrevocable decisions.

I should probably go all the way and automate releases via cron job.

Re: pending, pending --Simon Michael, Thu, 03 Nov 2005 14:31:01 -0800 reply
And see if it's practical to keep CHANGES.txt current throughout the month.

Re: pending, pending --Simon Michael, Thu, 03 Nov 2005 14:34:48 -0800 reply
And - speaking of pair programming - get a pair releaser (or three) to help me on irc. It's energising and a real concentration aid to have interested humans nearby in real time.

no patch left behind! --Simon Michael, Sun, 06 Nov 2005 07:02:55 -0800 reply
I thought we had nothing much to release this month, but there's actually a bunch of patches.

I'm trying to apply the last one from Encolpe. It's in the i18n files (warning! complications likely!) and it's about a megabyte for some reason, and darcs takes some unknown time > half an hour to apply it on my machine (I gave up and killed it). We seem to be hitting one of the darcs performance holes; I'm trying to understand the patch so I can see why and figure out a better one.

I also need (may or may not be related to the above) to update my i18n tools so I too can update the pot and po files. Periodically they break as zope 3 gets installed/removed/upgraded on my system. So there's a mini-saga of zope 3.1 installation, digging up the i18nextract.py patches, updating them, wrestling with patch, figuring out whether to patch source or instance dir, etc. etc.

The last is probably not a release blocker, but I will not leave that patch behind! 0.47 will wait for it.

Re: no patch left behind! --Simon Michael, Sun, 06 Nov 2005 07:21:06 -0800 reply
Encolpe.. I think the i18n plugins patch is so big because your i18nextract.py doesn't have the same patches mine has (see previous mail) and so includes extra directories like _darcs. Also I see bogus zope 3 directory paths appearing and disappearing, I'm not sure which version adds those. These extensive string changes are triggering a lot of darcs text conflicts (which I understand vaguely) which lead to the slowdown.

Also, I see most of the fr-CA removal was actually included in the big patch, rather than the previous small patch with that title. I think we should undo those two patches and try again. Here's what I suggest:

Re: no patch left behind! --Simon Michael, Sun, 06 Nov 2005 07:24:11 -0800 reply
PS,

- the small patch: since I already pushed this one to zwiki.org about twelve hours ago, I'll leave it in the repo; I've pushed a rollback patch for it, so pull from zwiki.org to get that.

Also, please re-send this one, the fr-CA.po removal, as a single patch.

I'll release some time today, so if these don't arrive in time I'll put them into 0.48.

see also, POLL --Simon Michael, Sun, 06 Nov 2005 09:41:24 -0800 reply
I've posted a follow up to this at http://zwiki.org/OldI18nDiscussion - Encolpe, please check it out when you have time and let me know if anything went badly wrong with your po file. All your latest translations should still be there.

Wiki issue:

Should the OldI18nDiscussion page continue to exist, separate from GeneralDiscussion ?

Pro: it is a place where translators can subscribe or browse to see important news affecting them, without having to receive all discussion.

Con: it fragmented this discussion across two pages and made me/us work harder and slower.

Have a look at both pages and let me know what you think we should do. I'll post this on OldI18nDiscussion also.

update --Simon Michael, Sun, 06 Nov 2005 10:25:13 -0800 reply
:

 *sm:* 4 hours sorting out i18n issues
 *sm:* release notes done
 *sm:* probably another half hour plus to release and announce
 *sm:* guess I'll pause for replies and finish it later  

zopebot on irc --Simon Michael, Sun, 06 Nov 2005 17:07:22 -0800 reply
You may have noticed a strange new metal personage hanging out in #zwiki, #zope and #zope-web: zopebot.

(17:01:13) sm: @? (17:01:14) zopebot: Z.O.P.E.B.O.T.: Zombie Optimized for Peacekeeping, Efficient Battle and Online Troubleshooting at your service. I have been running for 1 week, 0 days, 16 hours, 22 minutes, and 59 seconds. Begin commands with @, or my name, or priv msg me if you are registered. To find commands: list, list , or help .

zopebot can do many things, such as search google or major zope sites, but generally it stays quiet unless you talk to it. Mainly what it does is watch rss feeds and announce interesting changes in the channel as they happen (more or less).

Zwiki 0.47 released, news --Simon Michael, Sun, 06 Nov 2005 17:07:40 -0800 reply
Zwiki is a powerful, easy to use and administer, GPL wiki engine for Zope 2. It works in both standard Zope and CMF/Plone. Version 0.47 has been released at http://zwiki.org (details below) .

It's been a quiet month at lake zwikibon...

..though, there was a quite a bit of translation activity. This month we had multiple contributions from Encolpe Degoute, Jens Nachtigall, Frank Laurijssens and T.C. Chou. There were 28 commits in total. The wiki and discussions have been pretty much problem- and spam-free.

Useful urls:

Zwiki 0.47.0 2005/11/06

Summary

Allow limited-depth hierarchy display, translation updates, bugfixes.

Upgrade notes

If you have some #NNN issue links which are not working, the #1179 bugfix will take effect when you edit that page (or visit PAGE/clearCache).

Changes

Installing

Re: pending, pending --TomPurl, Mon, 07 Nov 2005 06:56:38 -0800 reply
I have a basic understanding of pair programming, although I've never done it before. What would this involve? Writing release notes while you merge patches?

Development Roadmap --TomPurl, Mon, 07 Nov 2005 07:07:08 -0800 reply
I know that I'm full of questions today, so please take your time answering them Simon. I was wondering aoout some features changes in ZWiki, so I took a look at the RoadMap2005 topic. In it, you said that one of your goals for 2005 was to make a 1.0 version of ZWiki.

My question is, what's stopping you from achieving that? To me, ZWiki is a very robust and stable wiki engine. It's much better than a lot of 1.0 software that I've used.

Re: no patch left behind! -- Mon, 07 Nov 2005 07:43:49 -0800 reply
I was using i18nextract from Zope 3.1, not the standalone binary. I think that most of the problems with i18n patch are coming from here. I will use standalone binary now, with your two patches.

Re: no patch left behind! --Simon Michael, Mon, 07 Nov 2005 08:50:00 -0800 reply
Clarification: I use the i18nextract.py from zope 3.1, with the two patches (which are still correct, but may not apply easily without some manual intervention, depending on whether you patch source or instance..). I haven't tried the standalone i18nextract package, let us know if you have success with it. I plan to try harder to get these patches into the mainstream, I suppose the zope 3.1 codebase is the one to try first.

Development Roadmap, call for help --Simon Michael, Mon, 07 Nov 2005 09:28:39 -0800 reply
TomPurl wrote:

I was wondering aoout some features changes in ZWiki, so I took a look at the RoadMap2005 topic. In it, you said that one of your goals for 2005 was to make a 1.0 version of ZWiki.

My question is, what's stopping you from achieving that? To me, ZWiki is a very robust and stable wiki engine. It's much better than a lot of 1.0 software that I've used.

Thanks Tom. I think it's pretty robust too (thanks to python, zope, a small but impactful set of tests, and extensive field testing, bug reporting and fixing).

What stops me calling it 1.0 is mainly aesthetic reasons; there are some holes and rough spots in the current feature set that I just think should be more polished in a 1.0 release. I should make a list, off the top of my head I can think of

So far these seem to have been too boring, and too unneeded by me personally, to really give the priority and time required to finish them, unfortunately. If many hands were helping it would be a very different story.

So, to your other question: traditional pair programming is two people sitting at one computer, working together. I was using the term loosely; there are many ways we could find to collaborate. In my experience even having someone on #zwiki, #zope or #plone asking questions, bouncing ideas and giving feedback is a kind of pairing which is really helpful. It is stimulating, it makes the work less abstract and less isolating, and it is a huge focussing aid which can make the difference between something and nothing getting done. The real-time element is important.

As Tom reminds me, the 2005 plan called for a 1.0 release and we absolutely should produce one within the next seven weeks. So I'd like to put a call out for co-creators, cheerleaders and support crew of every skillset to show up on #zwiki and lend their energy. It will benefit you, it will benefit the community, and it's fun! What's more if your company or employer formally allocates some time or funds to this, I'll give them a free hour of consulting.

This has turned into a bit of an announcement, with the idea of posting to the zope-announce or zope lists later..

Disabling question marks around non-existant wiki links --Nikolai Hlubek, Tue, 08 Nov 2005 01:45:23 -0800 reply
Hi everyone

In our wiki we use []-syntax for inter wiki links.

Sometimes we have some portions of code in the wiki which contains brackets as well. Because of the question marks zwiki automatically creates you can't just simply copy and paste the code anymore.

Using a trailing ! on each of these code lines is quite annoying so a better policy would be to disable the question marks which are shown when zwiki can't find a page altogether. Is this possible in some way?

Thanks for your help, Nikolai

-- "1984" is not a howto!

Disabling question marks around non-existant wiki links --Simon Michael, Tue, 08 Nov 2005 08:29:34 -0800 reply
Hi Nikolai.. yes there is, look in AdminGuide? -> configuring or QuickReference -> properties and you'll find it, if not let me know.

Disabling question marks around non-existant wiki links --=?UTF-8?B?SMOpY?3RvciBBcmd1ZXRhIFZpbGxhbWFy?=, Tue, 08 Nov 2005 09:20:58 -0800 reply
Hi:

I don´t want received more notices about wikis.

Thanks. Héctor de Jesús Argueta Villamar ***

Simon Michael wrote:

Hi Nikolai.. yes there is, look in AdminGuide? -> configuring or QuickReference -> properties and you'll find it, if not let me know.

-- forwarded from http://zwiki.org/GeneralDiscussion#msg4370D274.4090000@joyful.com

how to unsubscribe --Simon Michael, Tue, 08 Nov 2005 15:39:49 -0800 reply
Héctor, we don't know your email address so can't unsubscribe you. You must do it yourself. Here's how:

User login and security. --Martin Budsjo, Wed, 09 Nov 2005 04:47:12 -0800 reply
Hi

Is there a logical and clean/nice/obvius way to get people to login and se if they are logged in? Currently i have created a special page called "LoginPage?" that you need to be autenticated to view. Accessing this page will login the viewer. Then i have edited the wikipages.pt file to have a link and accesskey to this page on all pages in the wiki. It works, bit it's a bit cumbersome and awkward.

Is there any better ways to do this kind of thing?

-- Martin Budsjö

Disabling question marks around non-existant wiki links --Nikolai Hlubek, Wed, 09 Nov 2005 06:02:56 -0800 reply
Simon Michael wrote:

Hi Nikolai.. yes there is, look in AdminGuide? -> configuring or QuickReference -> properties and you'll find it, if not let me know.

Hi Simon, hi everyone I only found a way to disable []-links completely. But somehow I have to turn of the fuzzy-link feature of []-links as I understand it, and this doesn't seem to be possible. If it should indeed be possible I would be very glad to hear about it.

Nikolai

-- "1984" is not a howto!

Disabling question marks around non-existant wiki links --DeanG, Wed, 09 Nov 2005 07:04:05 -0800 reply
Would going to double brackets for link help? Exclamations at the beginning of a sentence?

I've also run into cases~* where a user wants to disable all links on a page. They suggested triple bangs (!!!) starting the document, and of course filtered out just link ! before a word or sentence. Not being able to mask links or page creation ?'s is especially disappointing with the /print feature.

~* Pages where Plain Text just isn't fun. Pages heavy with code references or examples inherintly loaded with never-a-page-name CamelCase words, lists of commputer names..and wanting to distribute (copy/paste) rendered text with no hyperlinks.

Disabling question marks around non-existant wiki links --Simon Michael, Wed, 09 Nov 2005 07:19:07 -0800 reply
Yes, you can disable each kind of wiki links completely, using the use_*_links properties, but you can't disable the fuzzy behaviour of bracket links, unless you change the code. Why do you want to do that ?

User login and security. --Simon Michael, Wed, 09 Nov 2005 07:34:42 -0800 reply
Hi Martin.. there are different things you can do. We haven't documented best practices for this. Such a doc would be welcome.

I think people usually just customise the wikipage template (usually in the ZODB, not on the filesystem) and comment out the tal:condition controlling the edit link, so that it is always displayed. Then when someone clicks edit they'll see a login dialog if needed, and then the edit form.

Or they add a "login" link to eg a pythonscript that redirects back to the page, whose permissions have been restricted. So they'll login and then see the same page but with extra controls visible. That sounds like what you described.

Or they may use a product like CookieCrumbler? or exUserFolder to provide a real login page, and they add a link or form that uses that. Or they use CMF or Plone, which provide all this.

I think it requires a small customisation to the template, in each case. Perhaps it would make sense to have the second option (a login link that triggers basic authentication and returns to the page) built in to the product, and easy to enable. In fact I started this last month, adding login and logout methods, but I couldn't see how to make them work.

Disabling question marks around non-existant wiki links --Nikolai Hlubek, Wed, 09 Nov 2005 07:38:52 -0800 reply
Simon Michael wrote: [...]?

Why do you want to do that ?

Consider the following example of python code, we'd like to discuss in the wiki.

a=[] b=[] b.append(5) a.append(b) print a

Now imagine a user wants to copy and paste it, to see what it does. Notice that this isn't possible because of all the added question marks. This is why I was asking how one could disable the question marks.

I don't like the trailing "!" method because you have to remember it all of the time and you can't use the source of the pages for copy and paste. (we use ReST.)

Cheers, Nikolai

-- "1984" is not a howto!

Disabling question marks around non-existant wiki links --Simon Michael, Wed, 09 Nov 2005 07:43:11 -0800 reply
For showing code, I think best practice is to "literal quote" it. In structured text and I think restructured text, it's like this (I've done it twice so it will appear on the wiki page):

 indented paragraph following double colons::

   appears in monospace font and prevents all wiki linking and formatting.

Or, if you're just quoting a small snippet in a sentence you can use structured text's inline literal quoting (single quotes). But that way does not stop wiki linking/formatting entirely.

Disabling question marks around non-existant wiki links --Nikolai Hlubek, Wed, 09 Nov 2005 08:10:20 -0800 reply
You are absolutely right and in fact we are doing it this way. But the question marks are still added. If the linking would be prevented for "literal quotes", this would be absolutely sufficient for me.

The following ReST:

put the following into ``site.cfg`` (newly created) :

  [x11]
  library_dirs = /usr/X11R6/lib64
  include_dirs = /usr/X11R6/include

leads to:

[x11]?

library_dirs = /usr/X11R6/lib64 include_dirs = /usr/X11R6/include

Nikolai

-- "1984" is not a howto!

Disabling question marks around non-existant wiki links --Nikolai Hlubek, Wed, 09 Nov 2005 08:16:25 -0800 reply
Nikolai Hlubek wrote: [...]?

You are absolutely right and in fact we are doing it this way. But the question marks are still added. If the linking would be prevented for "literal quotes", this would be absolutely sufficient for me.

OK. I just tested the same thing on zwiki.org and there it works. Linking out of "literal quotes" is prevented. Is this because of our old version of zwiki (0.42) or could this be a problem relating to docutils?

Nikolai

-- "1984" is not a howto!

Disabling question marks around non-existant wiki links --Simon Michael, Wed, 09 Nov 2005 09:16:26 -0800 reply
Aha! Yes, this was a bug in our reST page type, it's fixed in 0.47.

yikes --Simon Michael, Wed, 09 Nov 2005 11:28:50 -0800 reply
Yikes, thunderbird sent two incoming darcs patches to my spam folder. Hopefully I haven't missed any in the past.

User login and security. --Martin Budsjo, Wed, 09 Nov 2005 23:37:28 -0800 reply
Some sort of default login system for Zwiki would be very usefull. Currently i have to maintain the zwikipage.pt file manually each time i decide to upgrade. The idea of a Python script that redirects back to the refering page sound good, but i wuold suggest that there should also exist a page where you can see what permissions you get. Currently i have added a couple of DTML calls to my LoginPage? showing what roles the user have and the users Full name (I get the full name from ldap..) I find this to be of greate use in the process of finding out why something is not working.

Is there a way to show a link the the refering page?

Disabling question marks around non-existant wiki links --Nikolai Hlubek, Thu, 10 Nov 2005 02:25:24 -0800 reply
Simon Michael wrote:

Aha! Yes, this was a bug in our reST page type, it's fixed in 0.47.

Ok. This sounds good. Thank you very much for your help.

Best regards, Nikolai

-- "1984" is not a howto!

Changing Editform --ArnoPucher, Tue, 15 Nov 2005 08:13:19 -0800 reply
Is there a simple way to get the edit form bigger (more rows, columns) ?.

I am using Epoz and the standard size is ridiculous on 1280x1024 resolution ;) And yes - I speak of altering the skin - NOT setting a cookie in options (I empty my cookies on regular base - too much cookies are bad for the teeth) ...

Thanks for all answers, ArnoPucher

unsubscribe --Tom Cloyd, Tue, 29 Nov 2005 07:12:17 -0800 reply
Sorry to dump this on the list, but I searched for how to do it and could not find any way. Am willing to be directed, if this isn't it!

unsubscribe -- Tue, 29 Nov 2005 07:47:01 -0800 reply

Up right you have a sibscribe link: GeneralDiscussion/subscribeform

title of pages is " - wikipage" instead of wikipage's title --nachtigall, Wed, 30 Nov 2005 15:01:36 -0800 reply
Whenever link name does not equal the title property of the wikipage, I get the correct tag in the html source (e.g. <a href="http://www.freifunk.net/wiki/TestNochmal">http://www.freifunk.net/wiki/TestNochmal</a> where link is TestNochmal<a class="new visualNoPrint" href="http://zwiki.org/GeneralDiscussion200511/createform?page=TestNochmal" title="create this page">?</a> and title property is "Test Nochmal" (difference: one space), the <title> tag is correct: "freifunk.net - Test Nochmal".</p> <p>Whereas: If the title property of a wikipage and the link equal each other, then the title is "freifunk.net - wikipage" (e.g. <a href="http://www.freifunk.net/wiki/TestSchonwieder">http://www.freifunk.net/wiki/TestSchonwieder</a> where title property and link are "TestSchonwieder<a class="new visualNoPrint" href="http://zwiki.org/GeneralDiscussion200511/createform?page=TestSchonwieder" title="create this page">?</a>")</p> <p>this is on plone2.0.3 and zwiki0.47? Any ideas where to start debugging? </p> <a name="bottom"></a> <br /> </div> <div id="pagefooter"> <div> </div> </div> </div> <script type="text/javascript"> var gaJsHost = (("https:" == document.location.protocol) ? "https://ssl." : "http://www."); document.write(unescape("%3Cscript src='" + gaJsHost + "google-analytics.com/ga.js' type='text/javascript'%3E%3C/script%3E")); </script> <script type="text/javascript"> var pageTracker = _gat._getTracker("UA-3456280-2"); pageTracker._initData(); pageTracker._trackPageview(); </script> </body> </html>