release day --Simon Michael, Wed, 01 Feb 2006 09:11:02 -0800 reply

Good morning all! It's release day.. if you have anything to go in, send it quick!

Plone 2.1 i18n sendMailTo --monteiro, Wed, 01 Feb 2006 09:48:59 -0800 reply

I just suggested a fix for the bug #1204. Maybe you can consider it for the next version? Cheers!

Plone 2.1 i18n sendMailTo --Simon Michael, Wed, 01 Feb 2006 23:35:42 -0800 reply

Thanks! Replied there.

Zwiki 0.50 released --Simon Michael, Wed, 01 Feb 2006 23:47:56 -0800 reply

Zwiki 0.50 has been released at http://zwiki.org . Zwiki is a free, powerful, easy to use and manage wiki engine for Zope 2; it works with standard Zope, CMF or Plone sites. See below for other useful urls.

Almost no changes this month; skip this one (and send patches).

Summary

Minor changes.

Changes Mail

  • show subscriber counts in subscribeform

General

Useful urls:

http://joyfulsystems.blogspot.com - blog

Plone 2.1 i18n sendMailTo --Encolpe Degoute, Thu, 02 Feb 2006 01:25:03 -0800 reply

I'm a little late.This proposition can fix the bug because Archetypes accessor methods take encoding.

zope upgraded --simon, Tue, 07 Feb 2006 16:27:56 -0800 reply

Upgraded the zopewiki/zwiki.org server to zope 2.9.0.

retiring ZWiki-exp repo --Simon Michael, Tue, 07 Feb 2006 16:43:59 -0800 reply

I've removed the ZWiki-exp repository from http://zwiki.org/DarcsRepos as we're not using it.

cleanup --Simon Michael, Tue, 07 Feb 2006 18:05:35 -0800 reply

I cleaned up CodeRepos yet again. It was too wide and too busy.

>From now on, I will try to avoid all HTML decoration and stick to simple formatting (using standard stx headers, etc.) CSS must be used for decoration. CSS hackers needed at http://zwiki.org/StyleSheet .

Zwiki in CPS? --jedlund, Tue, 07 Feb 2006 18:40:17 -0800 reply

Hi, I need to setup access controlled wiki's so that groups of people can collaborate privately. (Working on academic research for example.) LaTeX? and image support is a must. I saw CPSZwiki? and it looked like it would allow me to create wiki's inside of CPS. Unfortunately CPSZwiki? doesn't seem to work. I downloaded it from http://www.zope.org/Members/ngouzy/products/CPSZWiki and followed the instructions. At first there was a problem with the skins directory not being registered. I fixed that in the code, but now if I add a Zwiki in CPS I just get more error messages that I can't make sense of. (CPS-3.2.4, Zope-2.7, Zwiki-0.50.0) Is there a better way to do this? I installed a newer version of CPS on another machine to look at CPSwiki?, but it doesn't seem to support latex.

Thanks,

Jeffrey

Zwiki in CPS? --Simon Michael, Tue, 07 Feb 2006 18:47:12 -0800 reply

Hi.. latex and CPS support are both going to be a bit tricky to set up afaik. But it should be possible to set up either, and probably both together. I would pick one to start with and contact the maintainer, ngouzy or Bill Page, cc'ing this page, and send the tracebacks for each error you encounter.

Zwiki in CPS? --Encolpe Degoute, Wed, 08 Feb 2006 00:19:30 -0800 reply

You may ask on cps users list. CPSZWiki is not only a port but a fork.

latex support --Bill Page, Wed, 08 Feb 2006 07:22:33 -0800 reply

I don't know anything about CPS but LaTeX? support (LatexWiki) in ZWiki and Plone is not that difficult to set up. See for example:

http://wiki.axiom-developer.org

Also there is also a recent project to create a bootable CD containing a version of ZWiki/LatexWiki with support for Axiom and other computer algebra systems.

In general, controlled access and the wiki concept do not mix very well. I am not sure why anyone would want to do "academic research" in private - getting people to collaborate is hard enough without deliberately limiting access - but that's just philosophy, I guess.

You can use Zope management to set up simple access controls.

LatexWiki CD --Bill Page, Wed, 08 Feb 2006 08:32:46 -0800 reply

> bootable CD containing ZWiki/LatexWiki with support for Axiom

http://wiki.axiom-developer.org/DoyenCD

Zwiki in CPS? --Simon Michael, Wed, 08 Feb 2006 08:45:27 -0800 reply

Do cc here though. I think CPSZWiki forked/patched only enough to get Zwiki installing in CPS, and I'd like to merge those changes so standard ZWiki works, as we did with CMFWiki.

CPSWiki? on the other hand is a brand new wiki engine. Each has a page on zopewiki.org.

latex support --Simon Michael, Wed, 08 Feb 2006 08:53:37 -0800 reply

Thanks Bill.. is there an up-to-date how-to ? Ideally, linked on zwiki.org ?

new login form proposal --Simon Michael, Wed, 08 Feb 2006 09:52:47 -0800 reply

(09:27:26) sm: http://zwiki.org/1212AnonymousCantEditPloneDemoZwikiOrg is because of the zwiki.org patch to require a username for all edits (09:27:36) sm: I'd like to solve this properly (09:27:55) sm: in general when something is not permitted, we want to do a couple of things (09:28:20) sm: 1. show a clear message explaining why this is not permitted (09:28:48) sm: 2. give them a chance to authenticate (by cookie or login) and retry (09:29:19) sm: just "raise unauthorized" doesn't fulfil 1 (09:29:31) sm: just a messagedialog() doesn't fulfill 2 (09:30:36) sm: do we need a custom zwiki unauthorised warning+login form ? (09:30:52) sm: should it be used in plone also, bypassing plone login_form ? (09:34:00) sm: I think so

Any lazier way to achieve the same goals ?

latex support --jedlund, Wed, 08 Feb 2006 11:55:13 -0800 reply

Thanks Bill, I've looked at the LaTeXWiki? code and I'll try installing it today. It seems pretty straight forward. To respond to your comments about "academic research": I'm a grad student and my advisor is regularly on travel. We need a way to keep track of ideas and collaborate on documents (like papers in progress or research plans). It's not appropriate for these documents to be publicly accessible. If it's possible to do this using Plone then I'll try it, but in my attempts so far I wasn't able to setup a private wiki inside of plone that can be accessible to multiple users.

Plone is overkill --Bill Page, Wed, 08 Feb 2006 12:12:27 -0800 reply

If all you need is user authentication, then you don't need Plone. Just use Zope's Manangement Interface (ZMI) to set the ZWiki security in an appropriate mannyer. Then create users manually in the sites ACL.

Plone is great if what you need is a large controlled collaborative environment with a publishing workflow.

Plone is overkill --Elan Ruskin, Wed, 08 Feb 2006 12:23:27 -0800 reply

In fact I wonder if there is a way to undo plone-ifying a zwiki. A while ago we moved from just Zope with ZWiki to Zope+Plone+Zwiki and we really regret it. Is there any way to strip the plone back out, but without damaging the structure of the ZWiki pages or interrupting service at all?

Plone is overkill --DeanG, Wed, 08 Feb 2006 12:25:42 -0800 reply

(Tangent -- likely off the original thread's topic.) For me, Plone Zwiki is about presentation, not functionality.

In this case, setting Authentication req'ts will give you the functionality, but not the Plone Login/Logout controls and Member management.

I like the way Plone presents the basic navigation features of Zwiki better than the default template (contents, recent changes, search), but that can be easily tweeked. Plone's Search Lookup on the other hand, isn't such as easy tweek but a killer feature.

On 2/8/06, Bill Page <zwiki@zwiki.org> wrote: > If all you need is user authentication, then you don't need Plone. > Just use Zope's Manangement Interface (ZMI) to set the ZWiki ...

Plone is overkill --Simon Michael, Wed, 08 Feb 2006 13:15:10 -0800 reply

> I like the way Plone presents the basic navigation features of Zwiki > better than the default template (contents, recent changes, search)

Ha, bah! I prefer the standard skin. I will admit I have several times missed the home/changes/issues links the standard skin used to provide, mainly when I was using a browser that didn't support access keys as Firefox does.

Search is similar in both, no ? Except plone's search searches all content, not just wiki pages.

But the plone skin is just so much slower.

jedlund, as the others have said you don't need Plone if you just want to keep your wiki private. That's built in to zope (use the ZMI to add a User Folder in your wiki, or use the one that's already at /acl_users; add appropriate users; configure http://zwiki.org/QuickReference#permissions on your wiki folder.) CMF and Plone add things like member self-registration and workflow.

elan, it's easy to unplonify your wiki; just use the ZMI to move the folder out of the plone site.

Plone is overkill --DeanG, Wed, 08 Feb 2006 13:39:18 -0800 reply

On 2/8/06, Simon Michael <zwiki@zwiki.org> wrote:

> Search is similar in both, no ? Except plone's search searches all content, not just wiki pages.

Yes, but "on the fly." http://plone.org/documentation/whatsnew/2.1/livesearch

This solves the complaints from "How do I know what's out there" to "I have to remember page names when editing a page." I'm surprised they don't have this feature integrated into Plone.org.

> Ha, bah! I prefer the standard skin. I will admit I have several times missed the home/changes/issues links the standard skin used to provide,

That's the amusing thing about my users feedback. In one hand, they complain that it's not intuitive and navigation and features are obscure, at best. Then they (those that stick with it) fall in love with the minimalist skin ![because they've finally figured out it's all about content]. Plone's "full screen" mode helps a bit here, but is no match for the current default skin.

Frankly, Plone adds MediaWiki? sexiness to Zwiki, giving that "first blink":http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060117/sc_nm/science_canada_websites_dc acceptance to the brave new world of wiki.

The ideal scenario would be to unplonify a wiki via a UserOption?, but I understand blocking the aquisition waterfall is no simple matter.

Plone is overkill --Bill Page, Wed, 08 Feb 2006 13:42:43 -0800 reply

We have a Plone site as will as the stand alone ZWiki site in the same Zope instance on the Axiom-developer website:

http://portal.axiom-developer.org

There are over 60 registered users but the stand alone ZWiki side of things gets much more attention than the Plone side - even though some people say they like the "look" of the Plone site better. Originally, I thought this would be the other way around - that most people would prefer Plone.

But who can predict user's reactions? It is hard enough just to get people thinking in terms of collaboration and using a web site in order to accomplish it.

If you really like the way ZWiki looks inside Plone, it shouldn't be that difficult to extract what you need from the Plone skins for ZWiki. No? I've never looked seriously at this.

But then again there is the rather neat way in which you can run ZWiki under Plone but switch to the stand alone ZWiki skin to make the Plone parts temporarily invisible, then later switch it back on - that way can (more or less) have the best of both worlds... I did try this once and thought it was "pretty neat" but there was really so little interest in the portal side of things, I just never gave implementing this on the production version much priority.

Plone is overkill --jedlund, Wed, 08 Feb 2006 14:23:27 -0800 reply

Thanks. I have a Zwiki now that's only accessible to authenticated users. It would be nice to have some of the things that DeanG is talking about, i.e. login controls, but I guess this will work for now until I figure the CPS thing out.

Plone is overkill --DeanG, Wed, 08 Feb 2006 14:42:02 -0800 reply

Bill, your real user experience feedback is invaluable. Wish I had more of that to add to the conversation. Thank you!!

> But then again there is the rather neat way in which you > can run ZWiki under Plone but switch to the stand alone ZWiki > skin to make the Plone parts temporarily invisible

Would you mind directing me to it?

Plone is overkill --Simon Michael, Wed, 08 Feb 2006 14:43:02 -0800 reply

Yes, http://zwiki.org/HowToUseTheStandardSkinInPlone explains how to offer the standard skin within plone. It works great, I use it on client plone sites all the time.

Plone is overkill --Simon Michael, Wed, 08 Feb 2006 14:52:33 -0800 reply

You can get a nicer login form just by installing a "Cookie Crumbler". To let members sign up and manage their accounts you do need something like CMF/Plone/CPS/ExUserFolder.

abbreviate issue page names in mailouts --Simon Michael, Wed, 08 Feb 2006 17:27:25 -0800 reply

Issue page names in mailout subjects are now abbreviated to just the number, since:

readers, and these now stand out more

bottom of the mail

RFC: drop ((...)) link syntax ? --Simon Michael, Wed, 08 Feb 2006 18:17:47 -0800 reply

I think I'll remove that optional ((...)) linking syntax which I added for compatibility with that wiki-in-plone-content product, because it doesn't work completely right and it feels like featuritis.

RFC: drop ((...)) link syntax ? --EmmaLaurijssens, Thu, 09 Feb 2006 02:20:34 -0800 reply

Agreed.

abbreviate issue page names in mailouts --EmmaLaurijssens, Thu, 09 Feb 2006 02:29:55 -0800 reply

IMHO the links at the bottom of the mail are hard to read for some people.

Can you make this configurable?

abbreviate issue page names in mailouts --Simon Michael, Thu, 09 Feb 2006 06:39:56 -0800 reply

It is, somewhat: you can override with the mail_signature property.

Re: Wiki hosting --Simon Michael, Thu, 09 Feb 2006 06:51:03 -0800 reply

On 2/9/06, Kent Tenney wrote: > > I can see http://longrun.zwiki.org/robots.txt in my browser:: > > User-agent: * > Disallow: / > > but it isn't visible from http://longrun.zwiki.org/manage > > Is there a way I can edit my robots.txt? > If not, could you edit it to allow crawling?

That's a good point. All the free wikis acquire robots.txt from my root

folder, which disallows all. For zwiki.org and zopewiki.org I override that to allow just google and internet archive. The restrictions were imposed to try and get control of performance a few years back.

Hmm, what to do. I kind of like having an exclusionary robots.txt at root level, keeping them out of my new sites by default. I do want the free wikis to be indexed by default - I think ? I don't want to move them all down into a common subfolder. I could put a robots.txt in each one but I don't want to encourage people to open it up wide - or is the load manageable these days ? In general it's not really satisfactory to allow only ia and google. Perhaps it's only an issue for the large wikis. Yours is slightly large at 800 pages.

Hmm, hmm, I'm not sure what's best. Do go ahead and make your own robots.txt. Feel free to allow everything and I'll see if I notice any performance issue.

Re: Wiki hosting --Simon Michael, Thu, 09 Feb 2006 06:53:29 -0800 reply

Even joyful.com has the same problem, which would explain why it doesn't show up prominently in google just now. Thanks for pointing it out.

Re: Wiki hosting --Simon Michael, Thu, 09 Feb 2006 06:57:00 -0800 reply

It gets worse.. even zwiki.org/robots.txt has the Allow line commented out.. the bots were probably making life hell. There's a page on this somewhere. That doesn't seem to have stopped it being indexed.. I'll note that robots.txt is more of a guideline than a rule, many bots ignore it.

Re: Wiki hosting --Encolpe Degoute, Thu, 09 Feb 2006 07:07:19 -0800 reply

Google, Yahoo and other professional bots follow all rules. Spammer bots...

Re: Wiki hosting --Simon Michael, Thu, 09 Feb 2006 07:20:48 -0800 reply

I cleaned up the zwiki.org robots.txt and moved it to the root folder. It excludes some obvious things that would be unnecessary robot-food. So all sites now acquire this as default. Kent, as I said feel free to override it in your site.

Note: for robots.txt, use a File not a DTML Document, as the latter will sometimes eat the first entry due to the : format (a dimly remembered, hard-won piece of zope zen, that!)

Re: Wiki hosting --Simon Michael, Thu, 09 Feb 2006 07:22:30 -0800 reply

On 2/9/06, Encolpe Degoute <zwiki@zwiki.org> wrote: > > Google, Yahoo and other professional bots follow all rules.

You'd think so wouldn't you.

abbreviate issue page names in mailouts --EmmaLaurijssens, Thu, 09 Feb 2006 07:40:44 -0800 reply

So what about a property called mail_issue_name or something?

Re: darcs patch: Issue name upon mail-out can be configured --Simon Michael, Thu, 09 Feb 2006 07:47:46 -0800 reply

Thanks Frank!

Is that because you really find the long issue names better ? I try to keep the configurable options to a minimum (though you wouldn't think it at this point..)

Re: darcs patch: Issue name upon mail-out can be configured --Frank Laurijssens, Thu, 09 Feb 2006 08:35:47 -0800 reply

We use the issue tracker a lot, and I find that most people tend to add comments only, so there isn't any additional descriptive text in the subject. With 50-100 changes each day to 400-500 open issues, a list with just issue numbers in my mailbox won't tell me much.

That, and making it configurable for now allows for a transition period. I really should educate my users, but until then, I'm able to keep up with important ZWiki updates without breaking anything else.

Re: darcs patch: Issue name upon mail-out can be configured --Simon Michael, Thu, 09 Feb 2006 09:24:27 -0800 reply

On 2/9/06, Frank Laurijssens wrote: > > With 50-100 changes each day to 400-500 open issues, a list with just > issue numbers in my mailbox won't tell me much.

Ok, that's persuasive - committed to the main repo, thanks. I might try to make it clearer later - mail_full_issue_names or something.

mail server change --Simon Michael, Thu, 09 Feb 2006 09:50:10 -0800 reply

I'm sick of qmail, and I'm going to replace it with the easier-to-manage postfix fairly soon. I will try to keep mail disruption to a minimum.

upgrade --gregg, Fri, 10 Feb 2006 06:53:36 -0800 reply

Hello, I have a zwiki (over 440 pages) created in zwiki version 0.098 (the one that came with debian unstable 3.0. I need to upgrade it to the current version (or at least the current version in debian 3.1). The automatic way of just installing the new zwiki and doing /upgradeall just doesn't work, at least not going from .098 to .500, which is a huge jump. Is there anykind of upgrade matrix? What's the highest I can jump from .098, and then on?

upgrade --Simon Michael, Fri, 10 Feb 2006 18:17:43 -0800 reply

Hi Gregg.. there is http://zopewiki.org/VersionsMatrix . If your zope and zwiki version is right, I would expect those pages to display. The upgrade notes in http://zwiki.org/ReleaseNotes may have something relevant.

thinking-aloud department --Simon Michael, Sat, 11 Feb 2006 09:58:31 -0800 reply

I stayed overnight with a friend who lives by the beach (a farther, quieter beach than mine) to get out of town and chill out. I ended up thinking about Zwiki and getting some Ideas. I want to rearrange some files and every move I make seems to cascade into a bunch of other changes right now, so I guess I'll make a new branch for this, ZWiki-oxnard. Here are some things I want to try, feedback is welcome:

Test files will be more in our face but that's probably a good thing.

tests in a separate layer not run by default. They are really slow.

aren't imported by anyone but us

This last aims to create better separation between model and view, influenced by what I saw in Django. I "learned Django" in two sessions, doing the tutorial etc, and I'm glad I did. It was fun (!). It is a simpler system than zope, lower-level, lacking in maturity in some places (eg it is not transaction-safe), but very cool. Once again I notice looking at other good systems has given me valuable insight, whether I use them or not. I should probably do the same research with TG, seaside again, and yes even RoR? to see what else becomes clearer.

accounts --Tue, 14 Feb 2006 08:39:46 -0800 reply

I've looked for a registration page for becoming a user. What is the proceedure? rick rickdevel@gmail.com

accounts --Simon Michael, Tue, 14 Feb 2006 08:56:52 -0800 reply

Hi.. there is indeed a kind of registration required to edit zwiki.org at this point, a lightweight one. Look at http://zopewiki.org front page, does that make it clear ? If so I guess we should put the same help on zwiki front page.

I'd rather have friendlier authentication errors to help guide you through this, and I recently checked in a start on this.

issue updates --Simon Michael, Sun, 26 Feb 2006 10:51:10 -0800 reply

I've removed the pending state from zwiki.org issuetracker.

Open serious issues have been reduced from 22 to 17.

unsubscribed you --Simon Michael, Sun, 26 Feb 2006 11:05:02 -0800 reply

Hi Stephan.. your mailer appears to send out of office replies without the proper "bulk" headers. I've unsubscribed you from http://zwiki.org/GeneralDiscussion for the moment.

Cheers, -Simon

bug triage --Simon Michael, Sun, 26 Feb 2006 13:32:18 -0800 reply

Cc'ing this GeneralDiscussion thread to my blog now. I've finally figured out what exactly "bug triage" means, hurrah! See http://geekswithblogs.net/srkprasad/archive/2004/08/20/9961.aspx , http://www.bobcongdon.net/blog/2005/11/triage.html .

As I said, I've removed the pending status from the http://zwiki.org/IssueTracker . I'm thinking about making wishlist a status instead of a severity. Would that be strange ? It would make the open issue count more meaningful and allow wishes to have severities.

I have reduced the open serious issues from 22 to 10. http://zwiki.org/1204 would be a nice one to have fixed, to get to single digits, but I'm not convinced the suggested patch isn't just a bandaid for one specific failure. I need to take the time to reproduce it locally if I don't get more data.

Re: bug triage --Simon Michael, Sun, 26 Feb 2006 14:02:58 -0800 reply

Hid the wishlist issues at http://zwiki.org/IssueBrowser . Much better!

delicious tag for zwiki sites ? --Simon Michael, Mon, 27 Feb 2006 08:15:37 -0800 reply

Discussing on #zwiki: should we have a http://del.icio.us/tag/zwiki-site , like http://del.icio.us/tag/plone-site , to mark examples of Zwiki sites and possibly replace http://zwiki.org/ZwikiSites ? Note there is already a http://del.icio.us/tag/zwiki . <http://del.icio.us/tag/zwiki><http://del.icio.us/tag/zwiki>

zwikitracker on slashdot --Simon Michael, Tue, 28 Feb 2006 17:17:20 -0800 reply

ZwikiIssueTracker linked at http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/02/28/203212 by me.. if you can, keep an eye on the wiki.. and mod us up!!