Archived i18n discussion. See that page for latest news.


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, Sat, 10 Nov 2001 10:54:59 -0800 (via mail):
> I've been following ZWiki for a time and I have several ZWikis?
> running around and serving fairly well the purposes of their
> communities. Thanks so far!!.
>
> An important issue I face when installing them is the lack of
> message customization.
>
> My purpose with this message is to know how can we incorporate
> international languages support into ZWiki. First and foremost, how
> should I do to get the example ZWiki translated into spanish and how
> would it be best to maintain it in sync with the developments in the
> code.
>
> I plan to be actively engaged in this project, for I need to get
> into close contact with ZwikiInternals and ZopeWorld? and I am very
> interested in looking more closely at the code.
>
> What I ask you is to think what would be the best strategy to
> internationalize ZWiki.
>
> Anyway, greetings for the achievements and I look forward to hearing
> from yoy,
>
> --
> �lvaro tejero cantero

Hello �lvaro,

thanks for your feedback and for your offer of help. I'd like us to make good progress on this soon. As you've probably seen on ToDo? my idea of the next step for i18n has been simply to gather the related comments and issues together in one place and figure out what's needed and how to proceed.

To get that process moving, I hope you don't mind that I am cc'ing your message to the http://zwiki.org/ZWikiInternationalisation page. This page could be a home for the "zwiki i18n working group".

Here's a small list I made recently: we need to identify and prioritize the different places where internationalisation and translation might be desirable. Perhaps

  1. page content
  2. page names
  3. headers & footers
  4. form pages (backlinks, editform..)
  5. error messages
  6. urls

I'm very open to ideas on how to ease maintenance of translated versions, etc. (I'm very open to ideas on easing maintenance in general!). The means of developing sample wiki content is an issue here (see ZWikiWebs?). I have gone from maintaining them over the web, to maintaining them as cvs-controlled source files, and back to the web again, for various reasons. I'm not sure which is better from the point of view of translations.

Best regards -Simon


J. David Ib��ez <jdavid@nuxeo.com>, Mon 12 Nov 2001:
I still haven't read this page (I'll do). Only wanted to say that I'm the Localizer developer and will help as much as possible if you choose Localizer.

More comments later..

thanks!


J. David Ib��ez <jdavid@nuxeo.com>, Tue 13 Nov 2001:
Below is the proposed solution using Localizer, it's only an overview. Keep in mind that I've only given a quick look at the ZWiki source code.

There would be need for an upgrading process.

I don't have time to internationalize/localize ZWiki myself, but will do any needed change in Localizer to better support this effort, will solve all kind of questions about how to do it and could do an small part of the work as an example.

I can give arguments about why to use the Localizer product instead of the XXX product if you want.

That's all, cheers.


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, Sat, 17 Nov 2001 18:11:27 -0800 (via mail):
Thanks, all this is really helpful.

I'm seeing the priorities as

  1. support international characters in editforms without having to use html-quoting. The editform will need to detect the browser and do the right thing if it's i18n-aware.
  2. (me) read the fine localizer tutorial, check zbabel.
  3. add optional support for localizer&/zbabel. Things should work as before if not present.
  4. start gathering product text strings into locale/
  5. start gathering translations of the default wiki pages, zwikidotorg template in particular; store as separate wiki templates.
  6. Explore message catalogs. Explore multilingual wiki pages. Determine whether to move some or all wiki templates back to the filesystem.


J. David Ib��ez <jdavid@nuxeo.com>, Mon 19 Nov 2001:
Good,

I think I can't help with 1.

Once you've done 2 I would appreciate if you tell me what do you think about Localizer.

I've suscribed to this page, if there's something else I can do for you just tell me. Regards.


2001/12/07 01:07 US/Pacific (via web):
I volunteer for all string translation -�lvaro tejero cantero alvaro at antalia.com


SimonMichael, 2002/02/21 11:03 GMT (via web):
I've done 2. Localizer looks very good, quite comprehensive. I'll have to get some practical experience to understand how it all fits together - with the (very useful) tutorial it would be great to see a summary of the various tools & techniques Localizer provides and when to use each one. Thanks --SM


SimonMichael, 2002/02/21 11:17 GMT (via web):
I'd like to break this into very small chunks for me and others to work on. Throughout, I'm interested to learn more about how L/ZB would be applied in each case. I'm going to address the InternationalCharactersInZwiki? issues, next I think a good start would be to internationalize all builtin messages, everything that doesn't come from the wiki template. Breaking that down further, I'll start with literal strings, then simple message dialogs, then the built-in default pages & forms. I'll do some planned refactoring of the latter at the same time.

Any suggestions for how to divide these efforts are welcome. I think l10n (translation) will come into play after some initial i18n infrastructure is in place. Or, translators could begin right now but I think it's a good idea to figure out the updating/syncing/workflow issue early on. I haven't thought about that yet, and I'm not sure if there are tools that we can make use of.

Possibly this page should remain ZwikiInternationalisationDiscussion?, we'll see


J. David Ib��ez, 2002/02/21(via web):
I think you're taken the right approach, splitting the problem and adressing first the simplest things to do. The plan you propose looks very good to me.

Regarding Localizer, the documentation still needs lot of work. Actually, the tutorial isn't a tutorial, people reads it and at the end they don't know how to use Localizer. I've to add a quick start..

The best way to get support for Localizer is suscribing to its new mailing list.

Of course you can ask me directly or through this wiki page (I'm suscribed again).

Development is going faster since I created the mailing list, as I get better feedback now. Expect 0.8.1 next week and 0.8.2 next month with important improvements in language negotiation, management of generic multilingual content and in the documentation. It also will be more easy to use.

In my opinion the best way to start would be to study how the different tools (zbabel, localizer, etc..) would solve the simplest problem, the translation of literal strings. Comparing how the tools solve a real problem would give a better understanding of them.

If you want I can make an step by step explanation of how to apply Localizer to internationalize ZWiki for this simplest problem. And explain too the key advantages that make localizer a better solution than zbabel.


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/02/21 17:48 GMT (via mail):
zwiki@zwiki.org (J. David IbXXez?) writes:
> In my opinion the best way to start would be to study how the different
> tools (zbabel, localizer, etc..) would solve the simplest problem, the

My plan exactly -


> If you want I can make an step by step explanation of how to apply
> Localizer to internationalize ZWiki for this simplest problem. And
> explain too the key advantages that make localizer a better solution
> than zbabel.

thanks, this would be very interesting. I'm going to subscribe to your list now so reply wherever you prefer.

-Simon


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/05/29 20:33 GMT (via mail):
zwiki@zwiki.org (simon) writes:
> Checked in the beginnings of i18n support. Requires LocalizerProduct?, has
> no effect if it's not available. Following Juan David Ib=E1=F1ez's guide= , I
> translated one (1) message and observed it's glorious multilinguality (by
> switching to netscape, setting my preferred language to irish (ga) and
> generating an edit conflict). I'm not sure if .po files should go in cvs,
> you can find them at [zwikidir/locale]?. Translators could begin working
> with these now I think. I have a bunch of questions, currently noted in
> the work queue.
>
> Updated i18n, renamed ZWikiTranslation? to
> OldI18nDiscussion. You might want to subscribe over there if
> you are interested in this topic.
> --=20
> forwarded from http://zwiki.org/GeneralDiscussion


FlorianKonnertz, 2002/11/18 22:11 GMT (via web):
Are there already any approaches for MultiLanguageWiki?(s)? - Anybody interested in having such a feature? - Implemention is not too easy IMO - I think of a node object replacing common page ids, mapped to the corresponding page names and user settings to switch on/off all contents of certain languages (automatic showing of links to LanguageSisterSites? - see ie.WikiPedia) - I'd be very interested because it's much work for me to keep two hierarchies (trees) consistent by manually linking inbetween (NooWiki:LanguageSisterSites) - copy/move this to FeatureWishList? if you like --FloK

... --2003/05/02 12:24 GMT
zwiki.org

Pablo, broken wiki --2003/05/07 21:35 GMT
I think [1]? is the first problem to solve. As you've probably seen, the formatting doesn't work with "tildes", i.e.: hola and **hol�** don't give the same result. This is awfully frustrating for spanish speakers.

broken wiki --SimonMichael, 2003/05/07 22:28 GMT
Hi.. that's a failing of StructuredText, which won't get fixed (unless..). RestructuredText should do better though (RSTTests)


comments:

zwiki.org and default skin now use utf-8 --simon, Fri, 09 Jan 2004 03:44:02 -0800 reply
I've changed this site's character encoding from iso-8859-1 to utf-8 (in the wikipage_macros template). This has probably broken all international-character page names and text, which will hopefully not be hard to fix. I expect to include this change in the default skin for 0.27; utf-8 is already used in plone. Any suggestions re migration issues are welcome.

another problem with utf-8 -- Thu, 22 Jan 2004 06:26:20 -0800 reply
I use ZWiki in utf-8 and Turkish. Turkish has a few characters that are not in ascii. One problem that I could not see in these pages arises when I start a word in caps (an ascii letter) and have a non-ascii character in the word. (Some non-ascii characters do not cause the problem) The problem i think is about CamelCase. Suppose the word is like "Deveku[As]?u" where [As]? is a unicode letter. ZWiki splits this into "DevekuA?" foolowed by a ? requesting for a new page, and another word as "su". Is there an easy solution to this problem? (I looked into Regexps.py but got lost..) Or do I have to wait for the 1.0?

another problem with utf-8 --simon, Thu, 22 Jan 2004 06:43:42 -0800 reply
Bare wiki links "can also contain (single-byte) international characters permitted by your locale.". So first I'd like to know if your locale is set correctly. What does this give you (at the python prompt):

 import string
 import locale
 print locale.getdefaultlocale()
 locale.setlocale(locale.LC_ALL, '')
 print locale.getlocale()
 print string.uppercase
 print string.lowercase

Also, are you saying the problem doesn't happen on this site ? Post a link to your problem page if you can, or post the characters here.

another problem with utf-8 -- Wed, 28 Jan 2004 13:16:40 -0800 reply
I am having the same problem in a Zwiki using the plone skin. Plone uses UTF-8, so when I enter a word that starts in Caps and has a non-ascii leter, like for instance "Alguém", I get a wikilink where I was not supposed to have. I think it can be fixed changing Regexps.py, using unicode characters on the regular expressions. #691 Wrong WikiWords with UTF-8 international characters

Comments moved here from elsewhere:

(QuickTranslationGuideForTheImpatient?) --SimonMichael, Thu, 26 Feb 2004 11:31:39 -0800 reply
Excellent.

It's outlined on i18n. I'm not sure how much to repeat here, though I like the page name. Here's a start - you'll probably want to refactor this discussion into DocumentMode? later. *Moved to i18n.*

(QuickTranslationGuideForTheImpatient?) programmers --SimonMichael, Thu, 26 Feb 2004 11:38:43 -0800 reply
Shouldn't this page cover programmers too ?

We might add "wait for the programmers to internationalize more" and "fund their work" options.

(QuickTranslationGuideForTheImpatient?) getting closer... --JároliJózsef, Fri, 27 Feb 2004 03:26:04 -0800 reply
Ok, I meant this page for those who have different background, different purposes than you. Writing non-programmers of course is a rough simplification.What do I mean? I think of people like me :) I've started to develop with Plone, without any Python or other programming knowledge. Translating Plone for me was relatively easy, just grabbed the .po file, translated it and done.Then upload the translated file in its own i18n folder, then build.sh, restart Zope, and works. (N.B other question is how to sync the stuff vith CVS) As far as I noted it is not so seamless with Zwiki yet. So basically the idea were to provide a howto like document, but it's not so clear yet. Anyway, may I edit your comments refactoring the page a bit so as to show what I meant?

(QuickTranslationGuideForTheImpatient?) getting closer... --simon, Fri, 27 Feb 2004 14:16:40 -0800 reply
Of course, please do.

You are focussed on translating the UI, step 2.2 am I right ? We might rename this page to ..L10N.. or ..Translation.. then.

(QuickTranslationGuideForTheImpatient?) getting closer... --simon, Fri, 27 Feb 2004 14:18:50 -0800 reply
Or both 2.1 and 2.2, rather.

(QuickTranslationGuideForTheImpatient?) comments --SimonMichael, Tue, 02 Mar 2004 08:23:07 -0800 reply
Hi Jároli,

my 2nd step, i18n of the templates.. May I do this?

Yes please. Send me patches or (better) your sourceforge id for CVSRepository access.

STX apparently doesn't work on 2.7.0 Zope

STX doesn't work with non-ascii characters. There is a patch for this; I tried it on this site but didn't get it working with zwiki yet.

About .mo files - doesn't PTS recommend to leave them out now ? It generates them automatically. I have more to say about the message files, but there are a couple of people intending to work in this area and I think we should centralize this discussion on eg OldI18nDiscussion. Do you agree ?

(QuickTranslationGuideForTheImpatient?) comments -- Wed, 03 Mar 2004 07:56:32 -0800 reply

my 2nd step, i18n of the templates.. May I do this?

Yes please. Send me patches or (better) your sourceforge id for CVSRepository access.

Ok, I don't promise it for tomorrow, because there are some thing what I'll have to learn. (first of all: CVS) then I need to put the 18n tags, but I guess I'll need an extraction tool, which autogenerates the .po files. I found this, but I'll have to fetch, install, try ....: http://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/opental

STX apparently doesn't work on 2.7.0 Zope

STX doesn't work with non-ascii characters. There is a patch for this; I tried it on this site but didn't get it working with zwiki yet.

It's not so big problem. But basically you teach reSTX to your users, or stick with Html format using epoz. I wouldn't use reSTX, because does not accept Html. So I decided to use epoz (0.x) but I have a related issue: #729 Epoz for ZWiki works well inside Plone, but doesn't appear outside Plone.

About .mo files - doesn't PTS recommend to leave them out now ? It generates them automatically. I have more to say about >the message files, but there are a couple of people intending to work in this area and I think we should centralize this >discussion on eg OldI18nDiscussion. Do you agree ?

AFAIK, you have to build the .mo (Plone has batch files for this in its i18n folder) and rename the folder to i18n and add additional headers so as to PTS recognize your files (see above). About OldI18nDiscussion I agree, we could keep this page in a kind of blog-like status report, experience summary as far as we couldn't say: "Ok, grab that .pot file and translate it to your langue, send back blabla"

(QuickTranslationGuideForTheImpatient?) comments --SimonMichael, Wed, 03 Mar 2004 08:36:33 -0800 reply
Jároli - I have moved the more technical i18n how-to to i18n, and our discussion to OldI18nDiscussion, leaving your page as a translator's guide; hope you don't mind.

Re your comment above - I got the i18nextract.py tool from zope 3 working recently. I recommend you use that one. It needed a minor change to fix hard-coded zope 3 paths, I can find this if you need. When you check out CVSRepository you'll see some useful i18n-related rules at the bottom of the Makefile (make pot and make po).

locale --Simon Michael, Wed, 05 May 2004 14:16:47 -0700 reply
Hello Joo-Yung (is that correct ?)

Thanks for this feedback. I am replying at http://zwiki.org/OldI18nDiscussion so that we can all benefit.

Hi, all.

It is my first time to try to install zwiki. And it might be a different subject than installation. It is a long story, but I hope that someone read this to the end and help me.

Briefly writing, it is a locale difficulty.

I'm a Korean, and I have a problem in inserting Korean characters in the edit page.

There are two symptoms I experience with regart to zope and zwiki (and possibly other zope products, too). Firstly, in starting zope and its products. Secondly, in utilizing Korean Characters.

Here are the explanations. 1. When I add locale ko_KR to zope.conf, then it causes error in starting zope and adding ll its products (including zwiki). 2. So I run zope with locale unset. Then I can at least input and see what I wrote in Korean even though the characters are broken in the edit page. 3. But in zwiki, it behaves quite strangely that I can not even insert the Korean Characters in the edit page. But to my strangenesses are that the Korean characters are mapped to others, for example, when I press a, it displays s. (Please consider a and s as Korean characters.) And that I can see the characters I inserted in the edit page, which is not possible in zope, for example, in the DTML Method edit page.

A couple of questions to help me reproduce the problem - is it possible to access your site ? Can you demonstrate the problem at http://www.zwiki.org/InternationalCharacterExamples ? Can you post the error traceback that you get when starting zope with your locale set ?

locale --Simon Michael, Fri, 07 May 2004 19:51:44 -0700 reply
Hi Joo-Yung - that is good to hear!

Your reply did not appear on the wiki for some reason (site down ?) so I'm including.

Dear my love Simon, You are absolutely correct in calling me. Thanks a heap for your intelligence.

And I was totally wrong in testing Korean letters in zwiki, and sorry for posting a misled message to this list. Sometimes, and mostly with regard to our brilliant characters, the Linux fools me.

Here is my story. I saw your reply last night, and followed the links to find Korean characters in the sample page. So it made me think that there must have been something wrong I missed. Too tired, so went to bed.

This morning, I tested Korean in my zwiki again, but it was the same. So I started my windows box, and tested, and YELLED. Even links can be made by using freestyle just like moinmoin.

I have been hunting many wikis suitable for my personal purpose, and each time I felt thirsty. And recently found zwiki on FreshMeat?, which I daily thank, and never looked back.

Here I would like to extend my gratitude to all the developers of zope, and zwiki.

Thanks,

p.s. I still have problems seeing my characters in the edit page in Zope, which confuses me because in ZWiki it is visible and legible. If you do not mind, can I ask you, Simon?

Sure.. are you saying they don't work in your wiki edit form (like http://www.zwiki.org/InternationalCharacterExamples/editform ) ? Or do you mean in some other (non-zwiki) zope application or the zope management interface ?

Best, -Simon

a utf-8 fix, i18n is happening --simon, Wed, 12 May 2004 20:50:20 -0700 reply
All - I have applied a fix to wikipage_macros in CodeRepos which makes translated text appear with the proper UTF-8 encoding. This means that skin translations are now working on zwiki.org and zopewiki.org, aside from a few custom templates which I need to update. Set your browser's language to one of the translations listed on [Internationalisation]? and try the editform. Thanks to the people helping with i18n and l10n - we have reached a milestone!

italian translation --simon, Sat, 22 May 2004 14:23:29 -0700 reply
Courtesy of lelit, we now have an italian translation. Thank you! it.po now leads, with 111 translations.

Foenyx was looking at getting Localizer translation of python code strings working again, but I think PTS is probably the way to go. I have been trying to get it working, close, but not there yet.

ooh --simon, Thu, 27 May 2004 13:59:17 -0700 reply
Ooh! Italian and chinese edge in front of french once again!

Ok I'm not going to manually update these totals on the i18n page any more. An automated report would be good. Great work all.:

 en
 0 translated messages, 197 untranslated messages.
 es
 13 translated messages, 12 fuzzy translations, 172 untranslated messages.
 fr-CA
 13 translated messages, 7 fuzzy translations, 177 untranslated messages.
 fr
 191 translated messages, 3 fuzzy translations, 3 untranslated messages.
 ga
 0 translated messages, 1 fuzzy translation, 196 untranslated messages.
 it
 196 translated messages, 1 untranslated message.
 zh-TW
 196 translated messages, 1 untranslated message.
 pt-BR
 70 translated messages, 25 fuzzy translations, 102 untranslated messages.
 zh-CN
 196 translated messages, 1 untranslated message.

i18n status --simon, Thu, 27 May 2004 14:49:26 -0700 reply
Since I haven't posted it here - current status of i18n support (as opposed to actual message i18n) is that we now support translation of python code, page templates and DTML (in skin and in pages) using PTS. Character encoding should always be proper UTF-8 except for this open issue where it doesn't work after a redirect (reload to fix). DTML i18n uses the dtml-translate tag but we currently have no way to extract these messages automatically.

dutch translation --Jaap Noordzij, Wed, 09 Jun 2004 10:09:01 -0700 reply
I have added a Dutch translation (mailed to simon at joyful.com)

dutch translation --SimonMichael, Wed, 09 Jun 2004 14:56:04 -0700 reply
Thank you! Pushed.

fuzzy translations need checking --simon, Fri, 11 Jun 2004 08:49:30 -0700 reply
Hi all.. I think we have pretty good i18n in all the DTML pages and templates now - great work. We have been testing the polish issue tracker translations and noticed that a number of translations have been marked fuzzy in all po files due to things shifting around, which disables them. You just need to pull the latest po files from darcs (also accessible on FrontPage) and search for fuzzy comments and remove them if the translation is still good.

i18n extraction status --simon, Fri, 11 Jun 2004 08:57:23 -0700 reply
We automatically extract dtml-translate tags, but only by a hack which means the following restrictions for now:

If there are things which can't be automatically extracted easily or at all, like CMF actions, they can be added to i18n/zwiki-manual.pot .

missing translations in plone --simon, Fri, 11 Jun 2004 08:58:51 -0700 reply
When testing zwiki translations in plone, note some of them come from the plone po files, not zwiki's.

Re: more i18n stuff --Simon Michael, Sat, 12 Jun 2004 11:54:44 -0700 reply
Thanks, ccing the wiki -

Hmm.. What about:

#~ msgid "Add an issue:" #~ msgstr "Dodaj spraw�:"

#~ msgid "Description:" #~ msgstr "Opis:"

#~ msgid "total" #~ msgstr "�±cznie"

It is in .po file but not in .pot file :/

These mean i18n text that changed too much to be considered "fuzzy" translations. For example it's now "Add a new issues:". Delete them if no longer needed.

Ah - there is something wrong in plone at history page with « previous edit and next edit » (it is displayed this way). I've replaced it in polish translation to << and >> and it looks ok. But this is still wrong for others.

I see only nl keeps the raquo in the translation. What's the problem ? I see, i18n html-quotes it. I have changed to angle brackets everywhere.

I'd like to try the darcs patch method rather than whole po files again, if you don't mind.

Re: more i18n stuff --Simon Michael, Sat, 12 Jun 2004 11:59:12 -0700 reply

I'd like to try the darcs patch method rather than whole po files again, if you don't mind.

Next time, I mean. All the latest has been pushed.

drumroll... --simon, Sat, 12 Jun 2004 12:47:49 -0700 reply
With Jakub's last update, all skin templates have been internationalised! Hurrah! I have updated the i18n status page.

po files have been split and renamed --simon, Sat, 12 Jun 2004 13:06:31 -0700 reply
They are now zwiki-xx.po and zwiki-plone-xx.po, similar to other products. This is because plone expects actions to be in the plone domain.

po files have been split and renamed --Lele Gaifax, Sat, 12 Jun 2004 14:43:33 -0700 reply
Italian is done, pull as usual.

po files have been split and renamed --simon, Sat, 12 Jun 2004 19:51:07 -0700 reply
Thanks, done.

German translation -- Mon, 21 Jun 2004 16:52:24 -0700 reply
I have send a German translation to Simon. Most of the messages are translated, but there are still some todos:

Nevertheless, I hope, the translation will be useful and maybe some other German users can do some proof-reading and fine tuning.

-- Andreas

Message composition -- Tue, 22 Jun 2004 03:13:16 -0700 reply
Some of the messages in the ZWiki UI are splitted into smaller parts in a fixed manner. For example, the last message in the edit form ist composed like this: {msg1: For editing help, see} {msg2: HelpPage} {fixed1: .}. Another example is the introduction in the subscription form: {msg1: You can subscribe to ... Or return to} {fixed: TheParticularPageName?}. This imposes a particular structure on the composed message, which makes it sometimes difficult to provide a nice translation. For example, you cannot use another sentence structure, which differes from the original one. Or in the second example above, the ellipsis was rather lengthy in the translation. So I would have preferred to use a short "You can either do this or return to PageName?." following the lengthy explanation about the effects of this and that.

In my opinion it would be easier for translators, if the messages were not splitted beforehand, but they would be able to reference the dynamic information (this is already done in some messages like those for the page rating). For example: "last edited %(interval)s ago by %(user)s" or "You can do blabla or return to %(pagename)s. Subscribers will be notified blabla." With this approach they are free to use a different (and in their language more appropriate) sentence structure, they can use the appropriate punctuation marks (instead of the predetermined one), and there should be no more spaces in front of the punctuation marks (resulting from joining several messages).

-- Andreas

Dutch translation update --Jaap Noordzij, Sat, 03 Jul 2004 04:56:36 -0700 reply
I have sent an update to Simon, based on 0.32.0.RC1. Some remarks:

Dutch translation update --Simon Michael, Sat, 03 Jul 2004 08:34:37 -0700 reply
I have sent an update to Simon, based on 0.32.0.RC1. Some remarks:

* Translation for buttons in management form in bottom of page seem to have disappeard

  • Page heading for Recent changes, Issue Tracker, Prefernces are not translate ?

Thanks Jaap.. there has been some kind of regression hasn't there

page management form i18n fix, po updates needed --Simon Michael, Sat, 03 Jul 2004 09:31:09 -0700 reply
I fixed the i18n:attributes attributes for the page management form. A missing ; meant that these buttons were not appearing in the pot file. Then I rebuilt the pot & po files. Except for zwiki-nl.po, po files may now need updating to get these translations working again, remove fuzzies etc. I won't worry about it right now.

Comments in po files? -- Tue, 06 Jul 2004 13:26:26 -0700 reply
I would like to add a comment to some translations in the German po file--for example for messages I have left deliberately untranslated. Will such comments be preserved when the po files are updated? Or will they be lost?

--Andreas

Comments in po files? --Simon Michael, Tue, 06 Jul 2004 15:01:44 -0700 reply
I just tried - yes it seems translator comments in the po are preserved.

German translation --Simon Michael, Thu, 08 Jul 2004 08:12:27 -0700 reply
Hi Andreas,

* I left the messages for "Add ZWikiWeb?" and "Add ZWiki Page" intentionally blank, because they are part of the ZMI.

Is this better ? What is everyone else doing ?
* There are also about a dozen other untranslated messages, where I wasn't able to find a good translation (or where I lost the motivation
That is fine.. progress is the main thing. I am forwarding the rest of this to the tracker. Thank you again.

German translation -- Fri, 09 Jul 2004 00:42:25 -0700 reply

I left the messages for "Add ZWikiWeb?" and "Add ZWiki Page" intentionally blank, because they are part of the ZMI.

Is this better?

I made this decision, because

  1. The ZMI is mostly used by the site administrator for administrative tasks. Ordinary users don't see it often.
  2. The rest of the ZMI is untranslated (or is there a ZMI localization available?). I found it irritating to have a single translated feature.
  3. Also I like applications, which feature a good localization, I prefer English for technical stuff. It's no fun to use Microsoft Visual Studio or the Bash shell localized to German, where you constantly have to mentally map technical terms from English to German and vice versa. The online-help for Visual Studio is particularly nasty, because only half of it is translated--you have to search in both languages to get all hits. Other's mileage may vary.
    What is everyone else doing?

I am also interested in this. Maybe we can find some common agreement.

--Andreas

German translation -- Fri, 09 Jul 2004 01:14:47 -0700 reply
I also would like to discuss how to handle

I would also be interested in comments from German ZWiki users about translations of terms like "Issue Tracker", "Uploaded Files", "Backlinks", and others. There is no translation, everybody agrees on. In Germany, we also have this tendency (which I dislike very much) to just use the English words--no matter there is a good German translation or not.

German translation -- Fri, 09 Jul 2004 01:15:23 -0700 reply
I also would like to discuss how to handle

I would also be interested in comments from German ZWiki users about translations of terms like "Issue Tracker", "Uploaded Files", "Backlinks", and others. There is no translation, everybody agrees on. In Germany, we have this tendency (which I dislike very much) to just use the English words--no matter if we a good German word, or not.

fixing character encoding --SimonMichael, Sun, 11 Jul 2004 06:58:32 -0700 reply
I am converting non-utf-8 content and switching the catalog to utf-8 on zwiki.org and zopewiki.org.

Pages like [InternationalCharactersInPageNames old discussion]? seem to have had their encoding corrupted - it's not utf-8, latin-1 or anything I can recognize. Any ideas ?

HelpPage.stx in French --Racing Pitoune, Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:08:20 -0700 reply
I plan to start working on this within a few days.

HelpPage.stx in French --Racing Pitoune, Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:24:41 -0700 reply
Hum... Sorry:) Just noticed it's already been done.

... --Simon Michael, Sat, 07 Aug 2004 20:17:34 -0700 reply
Jaroli Jozsef wrote:

Simon,

Please find attached the Hungarian translations of Zwiki (+ 14 million possible users :). Do not hesitate to contact also in the future if you think that the files need to be updated. I am sorry, that I don't have the time to be able to get more involved in your internationalization efforts.

Thank you József! Pushed for 0.34.

If you are able, subscribe to http://zwiki.org/OldI18nDiscussion to hear translator-related announcements.

Best regards -Simon

Re: ZWiki internationalization files --Simon Michael, Fri, 27 Aug 2004 08:49:17 -0700 reply
Jean Rodrigo Ferri wrote:

Hi Simon,

I have translated/atualizated the ZWiki-0.33.0 pot files to Brazilian Portuguese. The files are here:

Thanks!

In some sites that use iso-8859-1 characters, ZWiki broke the interface because use only utf-8 characters, I did hack all ZWiki source replacing the header utf-8 to iso-8859-1! Why this?

It was hard to get working. Careful patches for http://zwiki.org/IssueNo0855031HardCodesUtf8IgnoresCmfPlonesDefaultCharset are welcome.

translation news --Simon Michael, Sun, 24 Oct 2004 22:00:09 -0700 reply
Dear translators,

just a heads-up to let you know the strings in (eg) page management form have changed, and I have updated all po files. You'll need to pull the latest from the zwiki repository (CodeRepos makes this easy) and check your translations.

Also, you might want to know that some development discussion is taking place on the zwiki list, off-wiki, these days. (see AboutZwikiDiscussion). I'll continue to cc notable i18n news to this page for now.

Two new translators this month: Ofer Weisglass (hebrew) and Denis Mishunoff (russian). Welcome to the project. Ofer is interested in getting right-to-left working.

Thanks!

translation news --Simon Michael, Mon, 25 Oct 2004 17:01:45 -0700 reply
Lele Gaifax wrote:

My latest effort is fetchable as usual from

Thank you, pulled.

Transcription of accented letters in urls --JózsefJároli, Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:36:31 -0800 reply
Earlier I made a proposition, which I still consider rather important:

#736 Transcription of accented letters in page title ? (depending on locale?)

The reason is that for instance if I would like to call FrontPage NyitóLap, then it would be displayed in URL field like: mypage.hu/nyit_c3_b3lap which seems to be weird, so as every other page. Would it be hard to implement a solution for this problem? Anyway, is changing default FrontPage's name risky?

removing setHeader -- Wed, 27 Apr 2005 07:36:30 -0700 reply
Simon told me to add some note here :-) I had the problem when upgrading that my old content was still ISO-8859-1. As the conversion script did not work for me directly I just removed the charset-Attribute in the setHeader-Call and meta-Tag in skins/standard/wikipage_macros.pt.

It now looks like this:

   <head metal:define-macro="head"
      tal:define="dummy python:
      request.RESPONSE.setHeader('Content-Type','text/html');
      ">
  <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;" />

pot and po files updated --Simon Michael, Thu, 28 Apr 2005 12:14:23 -0700 reply
I've just pushed the patch "update pot and po files". This could be quite impactful and I wasn't sure whether to hold it until next release; I assume it won't actually break anything. Test reports, especially from non-english users, are appreciated.:

 $ darcs wh -s
M ./i18n/zwiki-de.po -371 +647
M ./i18n/zwiki-en.po -360 +567
M ./i18n/zwiki-es.po -370 +586
M ./i18n/zwiki-fi.po -364 +582
M ./i18n/zwiki-fr-CA.po -367 +569
M ./i18n/zwiki-fr.po -372 +657
M ./i18n/zwiki-ga.po -360 +567
M ./i18n/zwiki-he.po -366 +609
M ./i18n/zwiki-hu.po -385 +705
M ./i18n/zwiki-it.po -376 +665
M ./i18n/zwiki-ja.po -371 +654
M ./i18n/zwiki-nl.po -367 +650
M ./i18n/zwiki-pl.po -367 +646
M ./i18n/zwiki-pt-BR.po -379 +664
M ./i18n/zwiki-ru.po -368 +657
M ./i18n/zwiki-zh-CN.po -370 +656
M ./i18n/zwiki-zh-TW.po -370 +656
M ./i18n/zwiki.pot -424 +647

overview of encoding issues --Simon Michael, Fri, 29 Apr 2005 07:59:51 -0700 reply
Stefan Holek made a great list on plone-dev (thanks) which mostly applies to us as well. Anyone working in this area may want to keep track of the discussion over there.

Unicode/encoding/locale -----------------------

We want Plone to use utf-8 (or whatever is set as default_charset).

This means: - Serve pages with charset=utf-8 - Make edit forms produce utf-8 - This includes Epoz/Kupu - This includes (re)structured text - Catalog utf-8 and be able to search for utf-8 - This includes the new live-search - This includes languages like Hebrew, Russian, and Norwegian - Handle DAV up/downloads - Handle RSS - ...

Problem areas: - Encoding errors are the number one FAQ on #plone and the lists. - AT stores unicode internally (I am told). - ATCT may produce different encodings at different times (here/title vs here/Title). - Templates still contain sloppy use of e.g. here/title_or_id. - Concatenating strings may produce encoding errors if ascii and utf-8 are mixed. - str() may be dangerous. - STX and cataloging (splitters) may require changing locale settings in zope.conf. - All that only if characters outside of ascii range are used. - ...

There are virtually no tests for this stuff. This needs some serious championing, it's hard to get right. Tesdal made a UnicodeDetector? which may come in helpful when sorting this out.

FYI --Simon Michael, Sun, 01 May 2005 11:11:53 -0700 reply

Interesting. According to the GNU gettext manual:

  Comments not having whitespace after the initial `#', for example,
those beginning with `#.' or `#:', are _not_ translator comments, they
are exclusively created by other `gettext' tools.  So, the commands
below will never alter such system added comments, they are not meant
for the translator to modify.  *Note PO Files::.

So all the # Default comments are considered translator comments and never updated. Perhaps this was always the case ?

It seems that the fix is to make i18nextract write these as #. Default ... in the pot file. I've verified that msgmerge will update these, patched i18nextract , and regenerated the pot and po files.

Zwiki added to Rosetta --simon, Wed, 03 Aug 2005 05:46:03 -0700 reply
I've registered us at https://launchpad.net/products/zwiki/+translations . When the po files get uploaded there it should be a useful tool to help us coordinate and attract new translations.

rosetta progress --simon, Sun, 28 Aug 2005 19:30:05 -0700 reply
Setup on Rosetta is moving forward slowly.. you can watch at https://launchpad.net/products/zwiki/+series/0.x/+pots

rosetta progress --simon, Sun, 28 Aug 2005 19:33:29 -0700 reply
Mind you, I'm not sure how this will affect workflow, especially for those of you using darcs. We'll see how it goes. I think it will be an overall win for the project.

zwiki po files are now available on rosetta --Simon Michael, Thu, 08 Sep 2005 13:51:59 -0700 reply
Jordi Mallach wrote:

Hi Simon,

On Thu, Sep 08, 2005 at 11:23:57AM -0700, Simon Michael wrote:

Correction: it gave a happy message and seemed to accept the file, but there's no pretty colours showing up at https://launchpad.net/products/zwiki/+series/0.x/+pots/zwiki .

Hi, any news on this one ?

I took your files again and tried resubmitting the tar.gz. Rosetta accepted it after the recent updates, so it either was a bug in the upload system or some file Rosetta was choking on. This could be true, as prior to uploading your files I had to manually fix es.po, fi.po and ja.po. Please have a look at those using msgfmt -cv file.po: they were missing some po headers.

In short, your files should be up and ready now. Sorry for the wait.

Jordi

po files updated --Simon Michael, Sat, 01 Oct 2005 07:12:42 -0700 reply
The pot and po files have been updated, and some translations may need some updating.

don't translate subject tags ? --Simon Michael, Wed, 05 Oct 2005 08:44:40 -0700 reply
Mail-out subject tags like "(edit)", "(deleted)" etc. currently are translated to the preferred browser language of whoever triggered them. I'm thinking of leaving these untranslated, even though it's not so nice for non-english speakers, so as to have stable subjects which you can read consistently, filter on, etc. There are only a small number of these tags. Better ideas welcome.

i18n update --Simon Michael, Sun, 06 Nov 2005 09:30:16 -0800 reply
Hello translators.. I just did some i18n-related work which you should know about:

FYI you can see the current status of translations this way:

 $ make mo
cd i18n; \
for L in es fr-CA fr ga it zh-TW pt-BR zh-CN pl nl de hu fi he ru ja pt; 
do \
 echo $L; \
 msgfmt --statistics zwiki-$L.po -o zwiki-$L.mo; \
 msgfmt --statistics zwiki-plone-$L.po -o zwiki-plone-$L.mo; \
 done; \
rm -f *.mo
es
267 translated messages, 9 fuzzy translations, 12 untranslated messages.
13 translated messages.
fr-CA
13 translated messages, 7 fuzzy translations, 268 untranslated messages.
0 translated messages, 13 untranslated messages.
fr
254 translated messages, 12 fuzzy translations, 22 untranslated messages.
13 translated messages.
ga
0 translated messages, 1 fuzzy translation, 287 untranslated messages.
0 translated messages, 13 untranslated messages.
it
236 translated messages, 31 fuzzy translations, 21 untranslated messages.
11 translated messages, 2 fuzzy translations.
zh-TW
254 translated messages, 12 fuzzy translations, 22 untranslated messages.
13 translated messages.
pt-BR
179 translated messages, 80 fuzzy translations, 29 untranslated messages.
11 translated messages, 2 fuzzy translations.
zh-CN
254 translated messages, 12 fuzzy translations, 22 untranslated messages.
13 translated messages.
pl
212 translated messages, 44 fuzzy translations, 32 untranslated messages.
11 translated messages, 2 fuzzy translations.
nl
253 translated messages, 13 fuzzy translations, 22 untranslated messages.
13 translated messages.
de
254 translated messages, 12 fuzzy translations, 22 untranslated messages.
13 translated messages.
hu
240 translated messages, 32 fuzzy translations, 16 untranslated messages.
11 translated messages, 2 fuzzy translations.
fi
28 translated messages, 17 fuzzy translations, 243 untranslated messages.
0 translated messages, 13 untranslated messages.
he
111 translated messages, 32 fuzzy translations, 145 untranslated messages.
10 translated messages, 2 fuzzy translations, 1 untranslated message.
ru
211 translated messages, 45 fuzzy translations, 32 untranslated messages.
11 translated messages, 2 fuzzy translations.
ja
235 translated messages, 31 fuzzy translations, 22 untranslated messages.
11 translated messages, 2 fuzzy translations.
pt
82 translated messages, 73 fuzzy translations, 133 untranslated messages.
11 translated messages, 2 fuzzy translations.

We also are set up on Rosetta (https://launchpad.net/products/zwiki/+series/0.x/+pots/zwiki) but I haven't figured out how to best use that. I have not yet uploaded the latest files there so the graphs aren't current.

POLL --Simon Michael, Sun, 06 Nov 2005 09:43:39 -0800 reply
Simon Michael wrote:

Wiki issue:

Should the OldI18nDiscussion page continue to exist, separate from GeneralDiscussion ?

Pro: it is a place where translators can subscribe or browse to see important news affecting them, without having to receive all discussion.

Con: it fragmented this discussion across two pages and made me/us work harder and slower.

Have a look at both pages and let me know what you think we should do. I'll post this on OldI18nDiscussion also.

(please reply on GeneralDiscussion).

rosetta update --simon, Thu, 19 Jan 2006 16:40:50 -0800 reply
I have requested upload of 0.49's po files to rosetta on launchpad.net. After I see that they've been merged correctly I plan to copy everything from rosetta back to darcs. I was very pleased to find new arabic, estonian, turkish and swedish translations, among others, in full swing over there.

There might be some hiccups and extra work for translators as we incorporate rosetta into our process. Please let me know if you have any suggestions to make things smoother.

... --Simon Michael, Fri, 20 Jan 2006 13:21:38 -0800 reply
I've successfully uploaded the latest Zwiki 0.49 pot and po files to rosetta, after re-sending two files to Jordi Mallach. It's a manual process on their end, and so takes a while. It seems not as smart as I had expected about merging. For example, the zwiki-fr.po on rosetta had a bunch of translations changed by Nicolas Velin, indicated by blue in the status bar. zwiki-fr.po in darcs had a bunch of changes by Encolpe Degoute. By uploading it we overwrote most of Nicolas' work (I think). The site is so slick that I assumed it would do something really smart here (remember the alternate translations or something). There are indeed two different kinds of upload you can do, but I don't understand them; they might select which version takes precedence. I did download a copy of the rosetta files yesterday in case of trouble.

The recommendation at this stage seems to be: if you use rosetta for your project, all your translations should be added via rosetta. In fact that might help our process more than it hurts, and I think it's worth considering.

Meanwhile right now I have

  1. latest translations from darcs, in darcs
  2. latest translations from darcs + some new and changed translations from rosetta, on rosetta
  3. more changed translations from rosetta, perhaps different from those in 2, in a tarball on my disk

and I'm not sure how to proceed, or even how to visualise the overlapping translations so I can see how much work would be lost if I throw away the tarball. Unfortunately I can no longer see rosetta's coloured status bars of yesterday. Obviously I don't want to trash the good work done by our new rosetta translators. :) Ideas welcome..

I've cc'd the rosetta-users list in case it's useful; best,

-Simon

translation news --simon, Sat, 25 Feb 2006 23:30:59 -0800 reply
Hello Zwiki translators,

I just lost a longer post, so this will be very brief. Zwiki po files are in a state of absolute chaos due to the arrival of rosetta. I think we need to accept po updates both from rosetta and from darcs patches; I'm going to attempt to do this and merge back and forth each month. I'm documenting the process in the Zwiki Makefile.

Before I can move forward, I need to reconcile four different snapshots, two from rosetta and two from the repo as of different dates. At this point the best I can do is pick one, and it's going to be the rosetta snapshot of 20060119, which seems to have the most translations in each language. Also I think darcs users can recover old work more easily than rosetta users. If I revert any of your work, I apologise. An exception is the zwiki-fr.po in darcs, which I'll keep.

Going forward, you should be able to use either darcs or rosetta as you prefer. I'm hoping that each po file will tend to get changed in one place or the other, as I don't know how to reconcile conflicting translations. I've locked rosetta to prevent further changes until I get things up to date.

translation news --EmmaLaurijssens, Mon, 06 Mar 2006 08:14:32 -0800 reply
Strange, 0.51 contains the old (as in 2004-08-10) zwiki-nl.po file, while rosetta is current. What's up with that?

translation news --simon, Thu, 09 Mar 2006 18:55:39 -0800 reply
I don't know.. I opened an issue (as you saw).

I forgot to mention that I had unlocked the zwiki po files on rosetta again. I've added the quick links to the Internationalisation page if you're looking for them: http://launchpad.net/products/zwiki/+series/0.x/+pots/zwiki and http://launchpad.net/products/zwiki/+series/0.x/+pots/zwiki-plone .

As of today rosetta is showing some changed french translations, and new chinese, estonian, turkish, swedish, german and brazilian portuguese translations, since my last upload of the 0.51 po files. At least that's my understanding and my hope.

I know Encolpe maintains the french po with darcs, so I feel there is a translation conflict - maybe you could contact that person and coordinate with them ?

translation news --Encolpe Degoute, Thu, 09 Mar 2006 20:11:20 -0800 reply
I will follow that.

translations uploaded to rosetta --simon, Wed, 15 Mar 2006 17:22:06 -0800 reply
FYI, I just got notification that the 0.51 release versions of the tr, sv, ro, et, ar, af po files just got uploaded to rosetta, after being in the queue for 17 days. If by chance you made translations in rosetta during the last 17 days and they seem to have been overwritten, that's what happened.

plan for 0.52 --simon, Sat, 01 Apr 2006 12:21:09 -0800 reply
Ok, I can't put this off any longer, though it's hurting my brain already. Thanks for the reminder Frank. Translations plan for 0.52 ? I think:

plan for 0.52 --Simon Michael, Sat, 01 Apr 2006 15:58:58 -0800 reply
Hi all, here is the translation news for 0.52.

I had two updated translations in mail, hungarian from József Jaroli (committed) and japanese from Masaya Kato (could not save with the right encoding but found on rosetta instead).

I don't actually know how much updating was done on rosetta this month. (How could I tell ?) I downloaded all the latest from there, including a new thai translation by Bunyawat Singchai.

Next I updated the pot and po files from the latest code and committed them to darcs.

Then I uploaded everything back to rosetta. However, last month this took 17 days. This month the dapper release is pending and the upload queue seems to have 40000 files in it! So I don't know how long it will take until the updated po files appear there. I have locked the rosetta po files until that happens, to prevent new work there being overwritten. This is not ideal - it's really not good if rosetta translators can only work during a small part of each month! Better solutions welcome.

Aside from this, it's easier for me now if translations are done in rosetta. Note you can download from there, use local translation tools and re-upload if you prefer.

Otherwise, you can still send me darcs patches (preferred) or file attachments, but if you send translations this way, please also watch the rosetta po file to make sure no-one else has started adding translations there. If they do, please coordinate with them so that their work will always be included in the translations you send me. I can't merge translations from both rosetta and darcs and have to pick one or the other for each po file.

I haven't been able to see the thai translations working, and can't see why.

I've removed the zwiki- prefix from the po files.

Many of the translations on rosetta are partial and could use some help. See https://launchpad.net/products/zwiki -> Translations.

Thank you all!

plan for 0.52 --Simon Michael, Sat, 01 Apr 2006 20:37:30 -0800 reply

I don't actually know how much updating was done on rosetta this month. (How could I tell ?)
Oh right, the blue and purple bars of course.

plan for 0.52 --Frank Laurijssens, Sun, 02 Apr 2006 00:36:29 -0800 reply

Next I updated the pot and po files from the latest code and committed them to darcs.

New pot files... Makes me wonder. This way, the po files are always a step behind, there's always something new that remains untranslated in the latest release. There must be a way to overcome this.

plan for 0.52 --Simon Michael, Sun, 02 Apr 2006 14:33:36 -0700 reply
Yes. Big projects have a string freeze just before release, at which time developers stop and translators do their stuff. We could try this, but need to stay agile.

I need to update the pos from the code near the end of the cycle (but not quite as last-minute as this month), and then translators need to be able to work on them right away, and get the translations to me in time for release. They could do this now as follows: listen to OldI18nDiscussion for my announcement that the updated pos have been committed, pull the latest from darcs, update translations, send the darcs patch back to me before release. Even if I'm still making changes, most of the translations will get done. If the translator keeps darcs-pulling-translating-pushing right to the end, they'll easily keep pace with me and keep translations at 100%.

That's in the darcs world. A translator using rosetta of course can't be that agile, as the po files there can never less than two weeks old. I hope that will change, for the moment though it seems to be true that you can keep translations 100% current by using darcs and being active during that prerelease window, or you can keep translations current up until last month's release by using rosetta. Am I right ?

Re: zwiki-ja.po and zwiki-plone-ja.po --Simon Michael, Tue, 04 Apr 2006 12:23:14 -0700 reply
Masaya - see http://zwiki.org/OldI18nDiscussion which explains why rosetta was locked (waiting for uploads). I've unlocked it now.

Jordi - thanks for the swift uploads. I uploaded first the wrong then the right tarball to zwiki-plone, I'll send that upload again.

Thanks, all, -Simon

Zwiki 0.59rc3 released, po file updates --Simon Michael, Tue, 27 Mar 2007 23:08:05 +0000 reply
On Tue, 2007-03-27 at 23:06 +0000, Simon Michael wrote:

I've released 0.59 release candidate 3. Changes:

  • simplify issuetracker sorting-by-name setup
  • update pot and po files from code
  • translation updates from rosetta
  • stylesheet.css was ignored; now looks for "stylesheet.css" or "stylesheet", in that order
  • New nl.po (Frank Laurijssens)
  • upgrade notes for issue tracker (Frank Laurijssens)

Darcs-using translators might find a few more strings to work on now. Rosetta-using translators should wait until the purple bars at https://translations.launchpad.net/zwiki/0.x/+pots/zwiki disappear (which means the latest upload has been processed).

Thanks - Simon

ZWiki 0.60rc1 released --Simon Michael, Fri, 31 Aug 2007 00:34:38 -0700 reply
On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 00:28:03 -0700, simon <zwiki@zwiki.org> wrote:

Since I'll be away on a roadtrip over the 1st, I have published a release candidate. Now is a great time to install it widely, test, report problems in the IssueTracker, send patches to CodeRepos, clarify CHANGES, and update translations. The final release will go out next week.

The US celebrates `Labour Day `_ on the wrong date, but never mind: Happy Labour Day Weekend all you workers! -- forwarded from http://zwiki.org/GeneralDiscussion#msg20070831002758-0700@zwiki.org

rosetta po files updated --simon, Sat, 02 Sep 2006 18:45:12 -0700 reply
I have pulled the new breton, german, japanese, russian translations from rosetta - great work! - and re-uploaded new po files based on the latest code. I have talked about doing this ahead of the release to give you a chance for last-minute updates, but I wasn't able to this time. Sorry! The process went pretty smoothly this time, I'm getting better at it.