comments:

Zwiki 0.45 released --Simon Michael, Thu, 01 Sep 2005 22:41:03 -0700 reply
Zwiki is a free wiki engine for Zope, for creating both standard Zope and CMF/Plone wikis. You can find out all about it at http://zwiki.org .

This month we have some http://joyfulsystems.blogspot.com/2005/09/bug-squashing.html and the return of CMF metadata. Thanks to alecm, jbb, Tim Olsen and Mark Ferrell in particular.

Summary

Robustness fixes, Plone 2.1 compatibility fixes, simplifications, CMF metadata support.

Upgrade notes

You might want to delete the "outline" object using the ZMI, allowing Zwiki to create a more ZMI-compliant one. Note this will lose any manual re-ordering of subtopics you may have done.

The default colour for "serious" issues is lighter. This will take effect for each issue page as it is edited. To make all pages show the correct colour right away, visit SomePage?/upgradeAll in your browser.

Changes

Installing

Best, -Simon

WebLog --Simon Michael, Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:09:11 -0700 reply
Michael Haubenwallner's http://zopewiki.org/WebLog is great. You can paste it into any zwiki with a catalog and it just works. I've just installed one on zwiki.org and various client intranets, and I think it (along with WikiStats) is a good candidate for inclusion in the same way as recent changes and the issue tracker.

simon wrote:

Zwiki pages presented blog-style, implemented with dtml. This is a copy of d2m's ZopeWiki:WebLog . It's the latest and greatest of the blog-in-zwiki experiments

WikiStats broken? -- Fri, 02 Sep 2005 19:00:49 -0700 reply
Clicking WikiStats link appears broken with TypeError?

WikiStats broken? --simon, Sat, 03 Sep 2005 12:29:51 -0700 reply
Yes, and RecentChanges? too. :( It's http://zwiki.org/1145 .

WikiStats broken? --Simon Michael, Tue, 06 Sep 2005 19:08:49 -0700 reply
simon wrote:

Yes, and RecentChanges? too. :( It's http://zwiki.org/1145 .

Now worked around.

... --simon, Fri, 09 Sep 2005 14:04:24 -0700 reply
:

 sm: all: does the "topics", "subtopics" language add confusion, overall ?
 sm: would it be better to stick with "pages" & "sub-pages" everywhere ?

how to set up an easy-to-edit stylesheet --simon, Fri, 09 Sep 2005 22:42:58 -0700 reply
Create a custom stylesheet in your wiki folder which includes a wiki page.

  1. use the ZMI to add a DTML Method in your wiki folder with id stylesheet and content:
     <dtml-var "StyleSheet.src()">
    
  2. create a wiki page named StyleSheet?, select the plain text page type
  3. paste in the contents of ZWiki/zwiki_standard/stylesheet.css (http://zwiki.org/zwikidir/skins/zwiki_standard/stylesheet.css)
  4. if you want to restrict who can edit the stylesheet, go to the ZMI security tab for the StyleSheet? page and adjust the Zwiki: Edit pages permission .

Re: CMFAwareness? has no attribute __implements__ --Simon Michael, Tue, 13 Sep 2005 11:54:15 -0700 reply

this error? Should I add this to the issue tracker?

Thanks for the report. It's there. :)

All page updates and views are too slow --Elan Ruskin, Wed, 14 Sep 2005 15:05:41 -0700 reply
My team is up in arms about how slow our ZWiki has become. When we installed it and started working with it over a year ago, it was all right, but now with nearly a thousand pages every page view or update takes quite a while, enough so that people are starting to consider doing away with the wiki altogether. More than three or four seconds per operation is basically a dealbreaker for our artists and other non-technical personnel. So, in an attempt to save our wiki before they all come after me with pitchforks and torches, I'm trying to find some way to speed things up. So far I've set up a catalog and made sure that mailouts are disabled, along with everything else that server is running. Hasn't helped at all. Does anyone else have any troubleshooting tips for how I can speed up our 1000-page wiki? We're still running Zwiki 0.33, but I'm reluctant to update unless there's been some specific speed enhancement since then. Thanks much for any help.

All page updates and views are too slow --Phil Schumm, Wed, 14 Sep 2005 17:20:07 -0700 reply
I concur in that speed (or lack thereof) is beginning to be a concern for us too, though we're not yet at the point you are. I seem to recall a while back that Bob McElrath? used PTProfiler? to identify some potential performance bottlenecks, but I don't know what (if anything) was done to address them.

Perhaps Simon can say a few words about where he sees this issue fitting in in terms of the short to moderate term development road map. I might be able to contribute some time to this in the future, but unfortunately cannot right now.

-- Phil

Re: CMFAwareness? has no attribute __implements__ --Simon Michael, Thu, 15 Sep 2005 01:00:33 -0700 reply
No problem, this list is a good place to ask.

All page updates and views are too slow --Simon Michael, Thu, 15 Sep 2005 01:07:45 -0700 reply
Hi.. I don't have a quick answer on this, just that speeding up zope apps is a complex problem - you need to profile the whole server and especially understand zope's memory usage in detail. Big improvements can be had by tuning. Besides that, there are some known things Zwiki is slow at - saving a large non-html page, viewing a page with many freeform links, and to some extent just viewing any very large non-html page. I'd be interested to work with you to identify where your site's slowness comes from. On #zwiki would be quickest, but we can do it here too. If it's public, let me know the url and I'll have a look.

Hope this helps -Simon

All page updates and views are too slow --Simon Michael, Thu, 15 Sep 2005 12:08:21 -0700 reply
Elan Ruskin wrote:

My team is up in arms about how slow our ZWiki has become.
Hi Elan.. strangely I didn't see your original post in this thread, even though it did go out to the list. I just noticed it while skimming the zwiki-edits list, which I check less frequently.

I'm very interested in knowing why and helping you speed this up. We could do it here, but it's going to be slow; chat me on #zwiki if you like. Also as I just replied to Phil, send me any public url to help me make a quick diagnosis. Other information that would help: zope version, cmf/plone version if you're inside a cmf/plone site, your server's processor and ram, which page type(s) you use, which webserver you're using if any, what specific operations are taking 3-4 seconds.

mail enhancement, zwiki.org mail setup updated --Simon Michael, Fri, 16 Sep 2005 14:30:15 -0700 reply
I've made the changes to allow both comments-only and all-edits subscribers at once. The simplest thing I could think of was to allow an ":edits" suffix on the email addresses in subscriber_list. Some of the subscription api methods now have an extra edits flag, eg page.subscriberList(edits=1) lists only the ones who have requested all edits. This is not yet checked in. I haven't added any UI for it yet; maybe a checkbox in the subscribe form will be appropriate.

As often happens these days I prototyped, debugged and am testing it in the real-world setup on zwiki.org using a separate zeo debug instance and the zopectl debug prompt. This does not replace the unit tests which I didn't write, and I don't feel easy about this. I just didn't want to burn today's allotted time toiling alone and unloved in the painful realm of zope 2 unit/functional testing with a complex setup..

What I can do and have done now, at last, is to connect the zwiki list to the whole wiki again, not just UserDiscussion, showing comments and page creations, while also having the zwiki-edits list showing all edits. This should be working, I'll correct glitches if any in the next day or two and the AboutZwikiDiscussion docs will be rewritten soon. Here's the clearer picture I'm aiming for:

"You can track a zwiki's changes at three levels of detail:

  1. New pages - like a blog - (zwiki.org: use the pages_rss feed)
  2. Comments + new pages - like a mailing list - (zwiki.org: use the zwiki list)
  3. Edits + new/renamed/deleted pages - like a revision control system - (zwiki.org: use the zwiki-edits list)"

All page updates and views are too slow --simon, Fri, 16 Sep 2005 15:10:02 -0700 reply
Followup: on irc we determined that Elan's site (fast server with lots of ram, 1-2 simultaneous users, zope 2.7ish, plone 2.0, 1000 medium-large rst & html pages) was being slowed down greatly by the plone skin, in part because all 20 or so stylesheets/javascripts/images are being reloaded for each page view. This is pretty common, perhaps even the rule on out-of-the-box plone sites, not sure. Viewing a moderately sized rst wiki page with the plone skin was taking 4-5s, with the standard skin 1s, and with no skin (?bare=1) was nearly instant. Resolution: make it use the zwiki standard skin (HowToUseTheStandardSkinInPlone, updated today) as a quick fix, then pursue the plone optimization task. Perhaps he will add more later.

All page updates and views are too slow --simon, Fri, 16 Sep 2005 15:12:37 -0700 reply

with the standard skin 1s, and with no skin (?bare=1) nearly instant.

Or I might have gotten that bit wrong, we were testing an empty page as well.

test 3 --Simon Michael, Fri, 16 Sep 2005 15:21:33 -0700 reply
3

All page updates and views are too slow --Elan Ruskin, Fri, 16 Sep 2005 15:22:21 -0700 reply
The instant ?bare=1 load was for an empty page. But even a larger page loads in an imperceptible fraction of a second bare. The slowdown appears to mostly be when some kind of skin is in place, or when there is RST rendering to be done.

The Plone problem is more egregious than simply reloading each asset every time a page displays... Plone actually completely retransmits each style sheet and image every time it's linked every time a page is loaded. So twenty mentions of the same .gif on one page actually cause the .gif to get resent twenty times.

mail not flowing entirely right --simon, Fri, 16 Sep 2005 15:34:39 -0700 reply
If you didn't receive my post today about changes to the zwiki.org mail setup, check out http://joyfulsystems.blogspot.com/2005/09/mail-enhancement-zwikiorg-mail-setup.html . I do see some puzzles with mail showing up on one list but not the other at the moment, so while I work this out you might want to keep an eye on http://zwiki.org/GeneralDiscussion or recent changes as well.

All page updates and views are too slow --simon, Fri, 16 Sep 2005 15:48:14 -0700 reply

The slowdown appears to mostly be when some kind of skin is in place, or when there is RST rendering to be done.

Note that RST rendering should be happening only when you save an edit (not when adding a comment and not when viewing the page). That's the biggest reason saving an edit to a large page is slow.

Many wiki links - 10, 20 or more - in the page may slow down page viewing, if they are bracketed free-form links they definitely will slow it down. I forgot to ask if you use WikiNames or free-form names.

There's still a puzzle we haven't explained: your observation that viewing an empty wiki page with the plone skin takes 4s but viewing an empty Document is much faster.

All page updates and views are too slow --Elan Ruskin, Fri, 16 Sep 2005 15:57:12 -0700 reply
We use and must use bracketed free form links in our pages, and the likelihood is that there will be 20+ in many of our most frequently used pages. Since our conversation this morning, when I put in the Zope standard skin over the Plone skin, we've found a few pages that take ten seconds or so to load, whether in ?bare or not. They tend to have around 50 bracketlinks. There aren't many pages like this but the ones we have are important, eg "master list of art assets for level 5".

All page updates and views are too slow --Elan Ruskin, Fri, 16 Sep 2005 15:59:49 -0700 reply
A more typical case for a "leaf" page is about ten wikilinks per page.

All page updates and views are too slow --Simon Michael, Fri, 16 Sep 2005 16:07:05 -0700 reply
Ok.. there's no quick fix for that particular Zwiki performance issue (http://zwiki.org/818PagesWithManyFreeformLinksRenderSlowly), but here are some ways to avoid it:

mozilla thunderbird issue ? --Simon Michael, Tue, 20 Sep 2005 06:45:44 -0700 reply
I think thunderbird is hiding some of the zwiki mail-outs. I'm subscribed to both zwiki and zwiki-edits and it seems to (sometimes ?) only show the message in one or the other. Gmane shows the message went out to both.

ZWiki navigation in Plone/Kupu --SnakeZZ?, Thu, 22 Sep 2005 08:37:10 -0700 reply
I would like to integrate the wiki-documenttree (like the one you get when you open page/content or the wikinav_portlet) into plone, so that I can see the documentstructure in the original navigation portlet. Has anybody ever done this?

I also cannot get Kupu to work with wikipages, although I set the wikipage to html... any hints on this?

ZWiki navigation in Plone/Kupu --Simon Michael, Thu, 22 Sep 2005 10:36:05 -0700 reply
SnakeZZ? wrote:

I would like to integrate the wiki-documenttree (like the one you get when you open page/content or the wikinav_portlet) into plone, so that I can see the documentstructure in the original navigation portlet. Has anybody ever done this?

Hi.. can you explain this a bit more ? Do mean that at http://plone.zwiki.org where it shows the plone navigation tree based on folder contents, it should show the wiki's page hierarchy instead ?
I also cannot get Kupu to work with wikipages, although I set the wikipage to html... any hints on this?

Kupu isn't supported yet (http://zwiki.org/1057).

Epoz does/should work though - I replied at http://zwiki.org/1161 , if you didn't see it.

mail stats; retire lists ? --Simon Michael, Thu, 22 Sep 2005 18:39:38 -0700 reply
Reposting this after fixing the issue that kept it off UserDiscussion:

We currently have

I've opened issue #1162 for tracking the latest pecularities with zwiki.org mail, which you should already have noticed, all being well.

As a matter of interest, how would it be if I retired the mail lists and we went back to direct zwiki subscriptions ?

In favour of mail lists:

In favour of direct wiki subscription:

ZWiki navigation in Plone/Kupu --SnakeZZ?, Fri, 23 Sep 2005 01:10:36 -0700 reply

I would like to integrate the wiki-documenttree (like the one you get when you open page/content or the wikinav_portlet) into plone, so that I can see the documentstructure in the original navigation portlet. Has anybody ever done this?
Hi.. can you explain this a bit more ? Do mean that at http://plone.zwiki.org where it shows the plone navigation tree based on folder contents, it should show the wiki's page hierarchy instead ?

Yes, exactly I would like to mix the wiki hierarchy with the plone navigation tree (or replace the plone one with the wiki one).

mail stats; retire lists ? --Simon Michael, Fri, 23 Sep 2005 02:34:05 -0700 reply
Simon Michael wrote:

As a matter of interest, how would it be if I retired the mail lists and we went back to direct zwiki subscriptions ?

I went ahead and did this. Assuming it's reliable enough for us, it's looking like a big fat simplification.

mail stats; retire lists ? --Simon Michael, Fri, 23 Sep 2005 02:39:23 -0700 reply

As a matter of interest, how would it be if I retired the mail lists and we went back to direct zwiki subscriptions ?

I went ahead and did this. Assuming it's reliable enough for us, it's looking like a big fat simplification.

Posting one more time...

mail stats; retire lists ? --tom, Fri, 23 Sep 2005 07:47:14 -0700 reply

Simon Michael wrote:
As a matter of interest, how would it be if I retired the mail lists and we went back to direct zwiki subscriptions ?

I went ahead and did this. Assuming it's reliable enough for us, it's looking like a big fat simplification.

I'm confused. So the mailing list doesn't work any more? I guess I'll find out pretty quickly if this e-mail message never shows up on the list :)

Personally, I'm a big fan of mailing list because they're a nice standard way of asking qustions about software. I know that TWiki doesn't have a mailing list; they force you to use a pretty screwy wiki support interface that even alienates a wiki-love like myself.

Maybe you could just use a mailing list that isn't integrated with the ZWiki wiki itself? That would probably simplify the amount of work you need to do while giving old-fashioned people like myself a malining list option.

However, you're the one doing all of the work (which I very much appreciate by the way), so do whatever works for you!

Tom Purl

mail stats; retire lists ? --Simon Michael, Fri, 23 Sep 2005 11:41:28 -0700 reply

I'm confused. So the mailing list doesn't work any more?

Hi Tom.. correct, the mailing lists are gone. See http://zwiki.org -> Discussion and AboutZwikiDiscussion. You'll see that it's simpler.

But hopefully you won't notice much difference. The wiki has taken on the zwiki@zwiki.org address which used to be the list. To subscribe and unsubscribe from email you now use the wiki's subscribe form instead of sending mail to ezmlm's special addresses. This is much more standard among zwiki installations, and it's good to be testing/demonstrating it.

The gmane.comp.web.zope.zwiki newsgroup continues to work as before.

The gmane.comp.web.zope.zwiki.edits newsgroup has stopped showing the edits - it seems not so easy to arrange this without more software changes - but I don't think it's needed, and could be retired also.

mailing list; they force you to use a pretty screwy wiki support interface that even alienates a wiki-love like myself.

I hear you...
Maybe you could just use a mailing list that isn't integrated with the ZWiki wiki itself?

That's one permutation I haven't tried yet. I think the present setup is better for reducing fragmentation/duplication/uncertainty about where to post; and will not be too screwy or confusing. It feels to me like the best yet. But I'm willing to find out otherwise, let's try it for a bit.
However, you're the one doing all of the work (which I very much appreciate by the way)

You're welcome.

And since you rashly stuck your head up.. :) how's it going ? How long have you been using Zwiki, how do you use it, what is working and what is not working well for you ?

Regards, -Simon

... -- Fri, 23 Sep 2005 13:02:57 -0700 reply
:

  And since you rashly stuck your head up.. :) how's it going ? 
  How long have you been using Zwiki, how do you use it, what is 
  working and what is not working well for you ?

I've been using off and on for a couple of years, but I've really started to get a lot of use out of it lately as a personal wiki on my laptop. It's a fantastic "personal scratchpad/journal" in my opinion, and I'm using it a lot for that reason currently. I've also use Instiki and MoinMoin for a "personal" wiki, but they've either proven to be too simple (Instiki) or too structured (MoinMoin).

I've also considered using ZWiki as a workgroup wiki for the following reasons:

The only things that have kept me from doing this are the following:

Thanks for asking!

Tom Purl

templates --DeanG, Fri, 23 Sep 2005 13:09:02 -0700 reply
Can we coordinate a templates discussion time? I'll post my reasons later. Primarily: Hot feature, Obscure implementation path.

(As for migrating cookie users and seting to an authenticated user: cool.)

templates --DeanG, Fri, 23 Sep 2005 13:09:36 -0700 reply
Can we coordinate a templates discussion time? I'll post my reasons later. Primarily: Hot feature, Obscure implementation path.

(As for migrating cookie users and seting to an authenticated user: cool.)

templates --TomPurl, Fri, 23 Sep 2005 13:14:43 -0700 reply

templates --TomPurl, Fri, 23 Sep 2005 13:15:46 -0700 reply
I would also like to be part of that discussion.

duplicates --Simon Michael, Fri, 23 Sep 2005 13:17:47 -0700 reply
And oh yes, we are back in the realm of duplicate emails.. :/

It doesn't help that I'm restarting the server a lot just now, working around a PTS problem that's become worse.

Fear not, if duplicates continue I will install a transaction-safe MaildropHost? which should take care of it.

duplicates --DeanG, Fri, 23 Sep 2005 13:21:07 -0700 reply
my templates duplicates were from a successful POST, but server failure in browser response.. my apologies for writring between tasks and not remembering what the error once.

duplicates --Simon Michael, Fri, 23 Sep 2005 13:22:55 -0700 reply
No problem.. it was me doing a manual restart, I'd swear.

duplicates --Simon Michael, Fri, 23 Sep 2005 13:34:41 -0700 reply
Hmm, I'm also subscribed twice, which might account for some of them..

templates --Simon Michael, Fri, 23 Sep 2005 13:36:28 -0700 reply
Tom, thanks for the valuable feedback (I'd also be glad to hear these questions answered by anyone else..)

I'd like to talk about templates too, but first are we talking about:

templates --DeanG, Fri, 23 Sep 2005 13:39:04 -0700 reply

-------

For me, it's "import the content from some other page"....and then the feature candy starts glistening from there.

Re: What happend to the email digest? --Simon Michael, Fri, 23 Sep 2005 13:39:09 -0700 reply
anonymous wrote:

I'm getting lots of individual messages but I'm only subscribed to the digest. Please fix this. Thx brianryer at brianryer dot com

It's gone for now, please see the recent messages about this.

templates --TomPurl, Fri, 23 Sep 2005 13:49:55 -0700 reply
Crud. For me, it was Moin-style templates.

real member options --Simon Michael, Fri, 23 Sep 2005 13:52:41 -0700 reply

* Editing options that are only "attached" to your options, which are attached to a cookie. It would be nice to have a set of preferences that are tied to a simple auth user name.

About this one.. could you say a little more, perhaps give an example where you need this ?

I can think of one, it would be nice to have wiki options more integrated with cmf/plone preferences. On the other I've been reducing the zwiki user options and I'm not sure they're even needed in cmf/plone..

wikimedia-style macro templates --TomPurl, Fri, 23 Sep 2005 13:54:15 -0700 reply
I thought that you could do something like this already with DTML.

Moin templates -- Fri, 23 Sep 2005 13:54:24 -0700 reply
Call me Googleplexed, but I can't find out what this is. Would you mind posting a URL?

wikimedia-style macro templates --DeanG, Fri, 23 Sep 2005 14:00:18 -0700 reply
Yes, between DTML and Java$cript, you can do it all, but the barrier to entry for that is just too high.

In in actuality, I expect I was thinking Moin templates...

"wikipedia templates" --Simon Michael, Fri, 23 Sep 2005 14:00:56 -0700 reply
And my first assumption was skin templates. So, I'm glad I asked. :)

Feel free to start new threads about the others.

Dean I agree with you that wikipedia's templates/macros are hot - I spent some time at WP in the last couple of days and noted how effective they were. We have done the same thing via DTML for a long time of course, there are old pages about this, perhaps written by you.. the "beginner/intermediate/advanced" table of contents I used for a while is an example.

But we really should polish up this feature, make it completely safe (disallowing arbitrary DTML), probably follow WP's syntax, and emulate their heavy leverage of the feature.

templates IRC meeting time --DeanG, Fri, 23 Sep 2005 14:03:20 -0700 reply
Simon, would you mind stating a few times when you'd want to block off a 30-60 mintues to discuss this on IRC?

I'll bring the refreshments. ;-)

"wikipedia templates" --Simon Michael, Fri, 23 Sep 2005 14:06:51 -0700 reply
Also, I think this falls into the category of new features that I pledged to stay clear of in RoadMap2005.. So if any of you other zwiki-hackers want this to happen asap, as I do, please step forward and I'll help you figure out how. This is related to the safer-than-dtml script include wishlist issue which I've been talking about.

templates IRC meeting time --Simon Michael, Fri, 23 Sep 2005 14:09:57 -0700 reply
I can't commit today.. if you announce some chats I'll show up whenever I can. Feel free to post useful chat logs to the list, too, for those who couldn't make it.

templates IRC meeting time --DeanG, Fri, 23 Sep 2005 14:13:19 -0700 reply
I can't today, either. I was hoping for an announcable time where 3 or more of us could gather, ideally sometime next week.

templates --Frank Laurijssens, Fri, 23 Sep 2005 14:13:56 -0700 reply
Or:

(which reminds me that perhaps I should answer Simon's question to Tom as well:

  And since you rashly stuck your head up.. :) how's it going ? 
  How long have you been using Zwiki, how do you use it, what is
  working and what is not working well for you ?

We're using Zwiki as a simple yet very efficient tool to keep all activities within our migration project organized:

In general we tell our project members that it's not feasible to customize the number and names of the fields in the issue tracker. Of course it is, but in the end this limitation keeps us flexible. If we put too much effort in customizing the tool, the tool starts to dictate how we work.

With most migration projects, you want to make an inventory that contains certain information about the objects you are migrating, be it users, servers or applications. I've built a simple Archetypes form that can contain all this information, but what I'm really missing is the wiki way of linking, commenting and editing pages. So, if I could use a zwiki page as a template for my customized form, that would be great.

Another thing that I would like to see is a page template that fully writes out all issues in an issuetracker. We use issuetrackers a lot, and just a page with the names and statuses is not that useful in a meeting, unless you have some way to connect to the wiki with a PC, laptop or PDA, which we don't.

feedback --Simon Michael, Fri, 23 Sep 2005 14:38:13 -0700 reply
> And since you rashly stuck your head up.. :) how's it going ? > How long have you been using Zwiki, how do you use it, what is > working and what is not working well for you ?

Frank, thanks. I can't say enough how helpful real-world experience reports, descriptions of setup and uses, feedback positive and negative are for the project. Anyone else ? Also, when you answer, please also note whether you use vanilla zwiki, zwiki in plone, or some other setup.

It would be nice to set this up as a standard poll somewhere on the site, eh ? Any volunteers welcome. I did an informal poll of some zope developers a while back, I should dig up and post those responses too.

Back to Frank's report -

Frank Laurijssens wrote:

In general we tell our project members that it's not feasible to customize the number and names of the fields in the issue tracker. Of course it is, but in the end this limitation keeps us flexible.

+1. That said, I'm interested in any solutions for changing the tracker fields in a more elegant way. I did it recently for a client (for tracking flash-based screens in a new website project) and had to hack the code specifically for them.

users, servers or applications. I've built a simple Archetypes form that can contain all this information, but what I'm really missing is the wiki way of linking, commenting and editing pages.

It sounds like you should check out Wicked.

Another thing that I would like to see is a page template that fully writes out all issues in an issuetracker.

A quick way to get this is with the print script included in scripts/ , see ZwikiPrinting for a demo. You could use it to inline all the sub-pages below IssueTracker.

templates IRC meeting time --Simon Michael, Fri, 23 Sep 2005 14:42:14 -0700 reply
I'm on #zwiki more than any of you. So you guys pick times, get active, and I'll show up. :)

templates IRC meeting time --DeanG, Fri, 23 Sep 2005 14:45:45 -0700 reply
Tom, would you mind kicking this off according to your availablity?

templates IRC meeting time --TomPurl, Fri, 23 Sep 2005 14:56:13 -0700 reply
The best time for me is Monday night (after 7 PM CST) or next weekend.

Moin templates --Simon Michael, Fri, 23 Sep 2005 15:14:20 -0700 reply
anonymous wrote:

Call me Googleplexed, but I can't find out what this is. Would you mind posting a URL?

See eg http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/SomeNewPage , the left column.

Tom, why do you need this for your workgroup ?

Moin templates --DeanG, Fri, 23 Sep 2005 15:37:30 -0700 reply
Thanks! (Wow, Moin dropped those cryptic icons for Plone heading goodness!)

My group could use templates for "show me the way" starters of FAQ's, Personal pages, others instead of the TestPage 1 Line 1 Column 1 blank page motivation killer.

Moin templates --Simon Michael, Fri, 23 Sep 2005 17:47:03 -0700 reply
I can imagine that.. and yet, just how useful will they actually be in practice.. keep in mind you'll have to maintain them.. and actual live faqs & people pages may provide better examples..

Yes I can imagine situations where they'd be worth it but I'm not sure it would be as many as you'd think. It would be interesting to ask people who know moin well. In fact I'll do that on #wiki, too.

In moin's case I don't like how it puts this giant page of links in your face whenever you go to create a page. I think often the user isn't ready for that; their brain is full with something they've decided to move or add to a new page, they want a blank sheet of paper, not a complex page of options.

Moin templates --Simon Michael, Fri, 23 Sep 2005 18:03:46 -0700 reply
Anyway, why should I play devil's advocate and argue against this fine idea.. someone should just try it and report back. Is it a job for dtml or can it be done or at least simulated with simple static pages ?

Are there templates that we'd use for creating pages on zwiki.org ? I can't think of any right now. A massive wiki documenting machine parts being used by many new users would be easier.

But perhaps this gets subsumed by the wikipedia-style templates. (Oh-oh, crossing the threads..) Wikipedia templates/macros are usually dynamic, substituted at each page view, but if you use the subst keyword it's done once at edit time and then it's just ordinary page content. So where on moin you create a page and select FAQEntry? from the template links, on wikipedia (aka mediawiki) you'd create a page and enter {{subst Templates:FAQEntry?}}. On moin you see the links right there everytime, on wp you need to know the template name. In wp one-time and dynamic substitution/transclusion are nicely similar (just add the subst keyword), whereas moin has different-seeming mechanisms for these.

Problems with Zope/Plone upgrades -- Sat, 24 Sep 2005 02:24:11 -0700 reply
I'm upgrading my Plone site frome Zope 2.7.7 Plone 2.03 Zwiki 0.44 to Zope 2.8.1 Plone 2.1 Zwiki 0.45 (s.o. Windows 2003). In my new Plone installation Anonymous user doesn't see anymore Zwiki menubar (the green bar with view, modify, history, subscribe, search...). But permissions seem to me ok - they are unchanged respect the old installation, and anonymous can add pages. What I'm missing? Thanks Michele Michele

Problems with Zope/Plone upgrades --simon, Sat, 24 Sep 2005 08:12:01 -0700 reply
Michele, can anonymous edit the page ? Try visiting SomePage?/editform, and saving an edit.

Problems with Zope/Plone upgrades -- Sun, 25 Sep 2005 02:46:30 -0700 reply
Hi Simon, yes, anonymous can edit and saving edit, but he can't view the green content tabs: seems to me that the user must be at least authenticated. Has anyone experienced this? Thanks a lot Michele

Only LatexWiki can not be installed in plone, why? -- Sun, 25 Sep 2005 08:05:17 -0700 reply

unsubscribe --Brian Ryer, Sun, 25 Sep 2005 10:00:12 -0700 reply

feedback --Frank Laurijssens, Sun, 25 Sep 2005 15:23:04 -0700 reply

Also, when you answer, please also note whether you use vanilla zwiki, zwiki in plone, or some other setup.

Forgot about that... In general, the Plone skin makes the whole site more accessible for the average user. That is quite important when using Zwiki as a project tool. So, we use Plone, currently on 2.0.5 but I'll be migrating the site to 2.1 pretty soon.

I'm interested in any solutions for changing the tracker fields in a more elegant way. I did it recently for a client (for tracking flash-based screens in a new website project) and had to hack the code specifically for them.

Part of the issue tracker code is quite ugly. For example, out of the box, issues can have a status of open, pending or closed. These are just properties, so if I need another kind of workflow, I can change the properties. However, the default status of new issues is open which is hard coded somewhere. Sure, I can change the code, but what if I have more issuetrackers in my virtual site with different workflows?

It sounds like you should check out Wicked.

I did, but why did they have to come up with a different syntax?

Moin templates --DeanG, Mon, 26 Sep 2005 08:04:03 -0700 reply
IRC discussion Tonight, Monday at 7:00 Central.

(Can a prototype of "append that page to this current page" be built into the Preview functionality?)

Moin templates --Simon Michael, Mon, 26 Sep 2005 08:42:25 -0700 reply
DeanG wrote:

IRC discussion Tonight, Monday at 7:00 Central.

Which is 1700 or 1800 pacific time I guess.. 95% chance I'll make it.

quills, wicked --Simon Michael, Mon, 26 Sep 2005 09:11:42 -0700 reply
Hey Tom.. maybe a little off-topic here, but I notice your how to find Quills svn links are broken.. would you know where to find it these days ?

Also have you tried Wicked with it, and how did you find it ?

real member options --TomPurl, Mon, 26 Sep 2005 11:23:16 -0700 reply
Here's the use case. A user wants to edit a "vanilla" ZWiki page. When he clicks on the "edit" link, he gets some sort of authentication dialog box (the first time). He then authenticates using simple auth and all of his ZWiki properties are now used when he edits pages. I would basically like to force users to log in using simple auth before they edit (or do anything else) to a page.

My first obstacle when trying to to this is that the "edit" link doesn't appear in an "out-of-the-box" version of ZWiki. In order to allow non-authenticated users to see the "Edit" link at the top of the page, I have to give anonymous users "Zwiki: Edit pages" access. However, if I do this, then users won't have to use simple authentication to edit a page.

To get around this, I edited wikipage.pt in $INSTANCE_HOME/Products/ZWiki/skins/zwiki_standard and changed this:

  <a tal:condition="python:user.has_permission('Zwiki: Edit pages',here)"
    tal:attributes="
    href python:here.page_url() + '/editform';
    title python: here.translateHelper('edit-page') + ' (' + here.linkTitle() + ')'"
    href="page_url/editform"
    title="edit this page (last edited n days ago by so-and-so)"
    accesskey="e"
  >

to this:

  <a tal:attributes="
    href python:here.page_url() + '/editform';
    title python: here.translateHelper('edit-page') + ' (' + here.linkTitle() + ')'"
    href="page_url/editform"
    title="edit this page (last edited n days ago by so-and-so)"
    accesskey="e"
  >

Basically, I just removed the condition statement. However, after doing this, I was only able to edit a page if I was a root-level manager of the Zope instance.

Has anyone set up this type of authentication before? Is there something big that I'm missing?

Moin templates --TomPurl, Mon, 26 Sep 2005 11:28:09 -0700 reply
I'll try and make it for a little while tonight but I probably won't be able to. Here's basically what I'm looking for.

I want to be able to create a new page and be greeted with Moin-style new page templates. Once I decide to create a new page using a template, I am comfortable with pre-set headings in the text box.

However, I do agree with Simon somewhat. Moin-style templates don't really add that much functionality to a wiki. I just see it as a nice thing for wiki-averse users to help them get started. Hopefully, experienced wiki users have no reason for them eventually.

Moin templates --Simon Michael, Mon, 26 Sep 2005 14:25:27 -0700 reply
So to provide moin-style templates, for when you need a bit of a page creation wizard - I think we just need to brainstorm a how-to for wiki admins, not spend time making it a core product feature. I'm sure it can be done with wiki content + a little scripting/customization somewhere.

Moin templates --Simon Michael, Mon, 26 Sep 2005 14:29:06 -0700 reply
And when I say we I mean you (ImustnotworkonnewfeaturesImustnotworkonnewfeatures?). Let's compare ideas at the chat and perhaps Dean will be good enough to summarize here.

feedback --Simon Michael, Mon, 26 Sep 2005 16:00:53 -0700 reply
Frank Laurijssens wrote:

I did, but why did they have to come up with a different syntax?

If I understood him, limi persuaded them to use (( )) because brackets are hard to type on non-US keyboards. I suggested they support both.

Problems with Zope/Plone upgrades --Simon Michael, Mon, 26 Sep 2005 16:02:33 -0700 reply
I think Plone only shows the green border if you have the Manage content (or some other) permission. This is separate from Zwiki: edit pages permission.

templating chat transcript --simon, Mon, 26 Sep 2005 19:07:19 -0700 reply
:

 (17:03:22) DeanG: Greetings!   Has Tom stopped by yet?
(17:08:02) sm: hi deang
(17:08:10) sm: no
(17:08:14) DeanG: hi
(17:08:52) sm: so, what do you want moin templates for
(17:10:32) DeanG: Ridiculously easy databases.
(17:10:51) DeanG: Consistent fields, stepping stones, ...
(17:11:51) DeanG: fill in the blank Forms,  Checklists.
(17:14:06) sm: ok.. got a specific real-world situation where you need it, yet ?
(17:14:56) DeanG: Quick-n-dirty: On the edit form, a drop down of (filtered?) page names ("templates") next to an "Append Content" style button which would trigger the Preview functionalilty with the added touch of appending a blank line and then the selected page to the current page, ready for editing.
(17:14:57) sm: also, you might find http://wikimatrix.joyful.com and http://squeak.joyful.com/Packages interesting, wrt to what you just said
(17:16:13) DeanG: For my work, we have pages for installation tests.  They hand-type at least two lines over and over.   We also have a lot of page-per-FAQ's.   
(17:17:08) DeanG: The maintainer of the FAQ's went so far to make an "Add a FAQ" Flash app to make it easier for folks to type in the questoin and answer into a form which then drop the wiki using GETs/POSTs.
(17:17:22) sm: ok
(17:17:31) sm: you could do the same in a wiki page
(17:17:59) sm: maybe a special form for adding faqs is better than having that choice in the create form ?
(17:20:58) sm: you tell me.. I don't have a need for this feature at present so it's hard to motivate the brain
(17:21:10) sm: I can suggest ways to implement whatever you need
(17:35:32) The topic for #zwiki is: CHAT around 1700/1800 PST re moin-style page creation templates | Zwiki, the zope-based wiki engine: http://zwiki.org | without CMF, 0.45 needs a fix: http://zwiki.org/1149 | nice skin: http://lixoo.ath.cx
(17:35:46) s1: network troubles
(17:35:52) sm left the room (quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
(17:35:54) You are now known as sm
(17:36:25) sm: what did you last see from me ?
(17:38:20) DeanG: network troubles.
(17:38:22) DeanG: maybe a special form
(17:39:01) sm: ok
(17:39:22) sm: got any questions I can help with ?
(17:41:02) DeanG: No, just wanted to hear what other folks thought about templates.    I was hoping something could be hacked into the ZPT editform, and haven't tried yet myself since last time I was overhwelmed with the ZPT neapolitan..
(17:42:12) sm: when was that ? skin templates have gotten a little simpler recently
(17:42:40) sm: editform is not the simplest
(17:42:41) sm: you do need a real syntax-highlighting editor, for sure
(17:42:42) DeanG: cool.  Just after you published the preview feature
(17:43:50) DeanG: i think that hack also requires modifying edit to take a parameter which is a page id (or ideally name) in which to append.
(17:44:48) sm: page creation links call createform, a method in UI.py which currently just calls editform() with action='Create'
(17:45:41) sm: you could make createform customizable by a createform template (just like the other methods in that file)
(17:46:36) sm: then it would just be a matter of dropping a createform PT into the wiki folder, which offers the template links and from there goes to the editform
(17:46:42) sm: I wonder if that's a good way
(17:47:24) sm: need to apply the does-it-create-more-or-less-confusion test
(17:50:52) sm: in docs, we would say: editform is the template used when creating or editing pages
(17:51:31) sm: but, you can make creating use a different form by adding a createform template
(17:55:29) DeanG: hmm, but even when I'm editing, i'd love the snag the content from other page.
(17:56:31) sm: yes.. using templates even after creation
(17:56:53) sm: that sounds more like mediawiki's {{subst macros}
(17:56:56) sm: }
(17:57:04) sm: which you can use any time 
(17:57:20) DeanG: .. but is that dynamic, or does it just subst on first edit?
(17:57:22) sm: except they're not displayed as a choice
(17:57:39) sm: with the "subst" keyword it's just a one-time subtitution
(17:59:21) DeanG: ahh...     sounds messy in the multi-markup world of Zwki.   (Although less messy than some of the other of their macros.)
(18:00:36) sm: I'm not against adding MW's {{ }} macros 
(18:00:54) sm: I think they're useful
(18:01:46) DeanG: right.  Which markups would you not allow them?   Or would you attempt to pre-process them for all?
(18:01:51) sm: keep in mind people don't have to run all the markups we support, some may just configure things to be like MW
(18:02:17) DeanG: dtml and javascript solutions aren't trusted "in the wild", right?
(18:02:33) sm: {{}} macros seem like something that would be useful to have in all page types, a per-wiki flag
(18:02:38) sm: right
(18:03:04) sm: dtml can be made essentially safe in my opinion, but it's too complex to do that
(18:03:17) DeanG: editing content injection could by done by AJAX also, but i suppose that would need a lot of supprting XML returning functions.   I haven't dabbled in that.
(18:03:20) sm: and still people won't trust it
(18:03:29) sm: hence the need for {{ }} 
(18:03:33) DeanG: right
(18:04:33) sm: I'm calling it {{ }} here because I think following MW syntax where possible is a good idea
(18:04:45) sm: and it seems ok for us too
(18:05:28) sm: if it could handle the need to call scripts as well, that would be nice
(18:06:03) DeanG: how many are smiple replacements, how many require analysis of othe rparts of th epage?  (I'm tring to rmember if the alphabetic list only lit up links for those letters with an included anchor tag...)
(18:06:38) DeanG: this wireless keyboard stinks.  sroyr
(18:10:59) sm: so, in case we get cut off, if you can send a summary mail to the wiki after this I'd appreciate it
(18:11:10) sm: one sentence is enough
(18:11:18) DeanG: {{plugins for script....nor your tempting me with twiki plugin methods! ;-)}}
(18:11:25) DeanG: OK
(18:12:01) sm: things we've clarified so far I think: - making createform customizable might be a good idea (... sample documentation ...)
(18:12:40) sm: - adding standard content is not only useful during page creation
(18:13:14) sm: - mw's {{ }} syntax to be considered for us too
(18:13:46) sm: do you know about twiki plugin methods ? how do those work ?
(18:13:55) sm: syntax-wise 
(18:14:13) DeanG: I think it's smoething like  {plugin:name  paramaters}
(18:15:56) DeanG: ouch, their search is slow.
(18:17:17) sm: ok.. which is kind of similar
(18:17:47) sm: so there is a bit of precedent here for {} doing boilerplace substitution, macros & scripting 
(18:18:03) sm: plugin:name parameters
(18:18:13) DeanG: twiki uses %'s, ..   and named parameters. 
(18:18:29) sm: since we have dtml I'd rather stick to dtml python expression syntax for args etc.
(18:18:36) sm: I think
(18:18:38) DeanG: but {} is the most popular, as those are only used in code and math. :)
(18:19:00) sm: we'd use double {{ }} I believe
(18:19:11) DeanG: *nod*
(18:19:41) DeanG: So we're looking at a Zwiki specific markup pre-processor, that should work in addition to most markups.
(18:20:05) DeanG: inspired and cloning MediaWiki's "templates"
(18:20:24) DeanG: extended to contain twiki plugin method calling.
(18:20:31) DeanG: (with Python parameter syntax.)
(18:20:55) DeanG: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/CalendarPlugin
(18:21:53) DeanG: %name{param1="val1",param2="val2"}%  ->  {{plugin::name("param1"=val1,"param1"=val2)}}
(18:22:37) DeanG: oops... :: to :.   forced double quotes, or allow full Python string notation?
(18:22:58) sm: I'd like to call scripts with just standard python notation if possible
(18:23:03) sm: as if it were a dtml-var ""

wikipedia entry --simon, Mon, 26 Sep 2005 19:22:14 -0700 reply
FYI, I started http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwiki recently.

Problems with Zope/Plone upgrades -- Tue, 27 Sep 2005 00:50:17 -0700 reply
But my anonymous user doesn't see anymore the wiki view, edit, search, history... that are visible to anonymous in my zwiki 0.44, plone 2.03: the data.fs is the same, I'have copied it (well, used portal_migration), so I think that are the same also the permission on the folder. Pheraps is changed the global_contentmenu. (I hope I'm not bothering you). Thanks Michele

Search doesn't find document title --SnakeZZ?, Tue, 27 Sep 2005 03:06:55 -0700 reply
Hi!

Although I have done http://localhost/FrontPage/setupCatalog and searching in general works, the search function (the one on the top right) does not return any hits if I search for a keyword which is only part of the page title. If I search using http://localhost/search_form and type my keyword into the title field the page is correctly been found. How can I extend the search form (top right corner) to also return matches on titles?

Search doesn't find document title --Simon Michael, Tue, 27 Sep 2005 08:37:50 -0700 reply
Hi.. it's not clear which searches those are yet. I'd like to know which is the one that finds words inside a page title, because afaik neither zwiki's or plone's search typically does that. It depends at least somewhat on the type and configuration of your catalog indexes. Without a catalog this works better.

unsubscribe --Simon Michael, Tue, 27 Sep 2005 19:11:44 -0700 reply
Hi Brian.. I've unsubscribed you from the wiki, which is now handled by the wiki subscribe form, as the current http://zwiki.org docs should make clear (but perhaps they don't). If that's not what you wanted, let me know. Note you can use the gmane newsgroup to see discussion without receiving mail every day.

Best -Simon

mail setup news and POLL --Simon Michael, Tue, 27 Sep 2005 19:56:51 -0700 reply
Hi all.. here's an update on the zwiki.org mail setup.

I think it's working pretty well, and it's much simpler. I'm liking it. Notes:

POLL

a. keep discussing a wide range of topics here on UserDiscussion, including development issues and site issues, to avoid fragmentation and confusion ?

b. as above, but rename UserDiscussion back to GeneralDiscussion for clarity ?

c. revive the DevDiscussion? page and try to move the general development and site discussions over there ?

d. as above, but don't bother with DevDiscussion?; just use or create appropriate pages around the wiki ?

e. something else ?

mail setup news and POLL --Simon Michael, Tue, 27 Sep 2005 20:18:13 -0700 reply
More thoughts from me: instead of User and Dev, something like Newbie and General may be a more useful distinction for us.

That's what UserDiscussion was really aimed at: a place to discuss newcomer issues - both wiki users and wiki admins - without a lot of heavy technical discussion getting in the way. NewbieDiscussion?, NewUserDiscussion?, ... ?

Whereas the heavy technical discussers, while they can and probably should subscribe to the whole wiki, arguably also need a central page where they can randomly discuss development, site and other issues. This one I'm less sure of. Pro: they don't need to find the right page or create one for each topic of discussion. Con: they may tend to subscribe only to this page and miss the significant activity elsewhere in the wiki.

boring pages = DRAFT pages? --Bill TestPage, Tue, 27 Sep 2005 20:46:47 -0700 reply
Simon wrote:

whole-wiki subscribers will not get mail from the children of boring pages like Sandbox and TestPage. Previously the children would send mail. (A little more discussion of this feature is needed.)

On the Axiom/MathAction wiki http://wiki.axiom-developer.org I have made all pages with names beginning [SandBox ... ] silent. Lately I have begun using such pages as if they were DRAFT pages, i.e. I create and edit them silently. When I think I want other people to know about them, I do a page re-name to just [ ... ] that causes subscribers to receive a notification of the new page and the page becomes "live". It is a very simple form of workflow.

This makes me wonder if it might not be almost as easy just to implement this simple kind of workflow in a tiddier way. Why not just add a new property to wiki pages such as status with a simple life-cycle. E.g.

status="draft"
would be silent
status="live"
announced as new, edits
status="dead"
no edits, half-way to deleted

etc.

mail enhancements --Simon Michael, Wed, 28 Sep 2005 18:23:12 -0700 reply
Finished some mail changes today:

  1. dropped (new), added (edit) in mailout subjects
  2. resolved a problem where you could not reliably monitor all changes by mail due to boring pages (by making them always send mail to people who've requested all edits). This is simple but interacted with the legacy mailout_policy property/upgrading, and involved a lot of head scratching and Deep Thought. From the sendMailToSubscribers docstring in Mail.py:
            This is used for sending things of interest to all subscribers,
            like comments and page creations. To reduce noise we apply a few
            special cases:
            - if text is empty, don't send
            - if this is a boring page, don't send to wiki subscribers unless
              they've requested all edits
    

If you're interested, the other options I considered:

        0. old:
          mailout     page         page edits   wiki         wiki edits
          policy      subscribers  subscribers  subscribers  subscribers
          --------    ------------ -----------  -----------  -----------
          comments    all comments all edits    nb comments  nb edits
          edits       all edits    all edits    nb edits     nb edits

        1. change to:
          mailout     page         page edits   wiki         wiki edits
          policy      subscribers  subscribers  subscribers  subscribers
          --------    ------------ -----------  -----------  -----------
          comments    all comments all edits    nb comments  nb edits
          edits       all edits    all edits    nb edits     nb edits
          all         all edits    all edits    all edits    all edits

        2. or:
          mailout     page         page edits   wiki         wiki edits
          policy      subscribers  subscribers  subscribers  subscribers
          --------    ------------ -----------  -----------  -----------
          comments    all comments all edits    nb comments  nb edits
          allcomments all comments all edits    all comments all edits
          edits       all edits    all edits    nb edits     nb edits
          all         all edits    all edits    all edits    all edits

        3. or:
          mailout     page         page edits   wiki         wiki edits
          policy      subscribers  subscribers  subscribers  subscribers
          --------    ------------ -----------  -----------  -----------
          nonboring   all comments all edits    nb comments  nb edits
          all         all comments all edits    all comments all edits

        4. or:
          mailout     page         page edits   wiki         wiki edits
          boring      subscribers  subscribers  subscribers  subscribers
          --------    ------------ -----------  -----------  -----------
          0           all comments all edits    nb comments  nb edits
          1           all comments all edits    all comments all edits

        5. or:
          mailout     page         page edits   wiki         wiki edits
          policy      subscribers  subscribers  subscribers  subscribers
          --------    ------------ -----------  -----------  -----------
          nonboring   all comments all edits    nb comments  nb edits
          edits       all edits    all edits    nb edits     nb edits
          all         all comments all edits    all comments all edits

        6. or:
          mailout     page         page edits   wiki         wiki edits  wiki boring
          policy      subscribers  subscribers  subscribers  subscribers subscribers
          --------    ------------ -----------  -----------  ----------- -----------
          comments    all comments all edits    nb comments  nb edits    all edits
          edits       all edits    all edits    nb edits     nb edits    all edits

        7. or:
          mailout     page         page edits   wiki         wiki edits
          policy      subscribers  subscribers  subscribers  subscribers
          --------    ------------ -----------  -----------  -----------
          comments    all comments all edits    nb comments  all edits
          edits       all edits    all edits    all edits    all edits

I went with 7. This leaves mailout_policy working the same way and allows us to deprecate and get rid of it later. From sendMailToEditsSubscribers:

        For backwards compatibility, a mailout_policy property with value
        edits on the wiki folder will override this and send to all
        subscribers.  I think that needs to go away as it makes the user's
        choice on subscribeform useless. During upgrade we could remove it
        and convert all subscribers to edits subscribers.

Just had to bore you with all this before I wipe it from the source. :)

boring pages = DRAFT pages? --Simon Michael, Wed, 28 Sep 2005 18:35:26 -0700 reply
Bill TestPage wrote:

I have made all pages with names beginning [SandBox ... ] silent. Lately I have begun using such pages as if they were DRAFT pages, i.e. I create and edit them silently. When I think I want other people to know about them, I do a page re-name to just [ ... ] that causes subscribers to receive a notification of the new page and the page becomes "live". It is a very simple form of workflow.

Thanks Bill, that's interesting. I thought I'd add it but now I wonder if just parenting under SandBox isn't easier and more versatile.
This makes me wonder if it might not be almost as easy just to implement this simple kind of workflow in a tiddier way. Why not just add a new property to wiki pages such as status with a simple life-cycle. E.g.
It starts to feel a bit like re-inventing CMF.. I'd rather come up with a generic way to add arbitrary properties or structured fields.

Still, it could be a nice thing for a plugin to do.

draft parents --Bill TestPage, Wed, 28 Sep 2005 19:13:31 -0700 reply
Simon wrote:

I wonder if just parenting under SandBox isn't easier and more versatile

Yes, I agree. Then my "cheap workflow" hack would just involve page reparenting instead of a page rename. To be fancy we might allow [Draft]? as a boring page and then page hierarchy would show the word Draft at the top. Nice.

draft parents --Simon Michael, Wed, 28 Sep 2005 21:47:43 -0700 reply
There's a boring_pages list property where you can add Draft, translations of SandBox etc.

brackets hard for non-us users ? --Simon Michael, Thu, 29 Sep 2005 09:32:28 -0700 reply
As I mentioned, Alex Limi says brackets are hard to type for non-us users. Your thoughts ?

In wikis with free-form names (which I expect to be the majority in future) the wiki-link characters do need to be as easy as possible. I wonder if we should be think about adding one more optional syntax ?

Squeak wikis use page name. I'm not sure if using the same character for both delimiters would make it harder to implement. If you could have any way of indicating a wiki link, what would it be ?

mail setup news and POLL --Simon Michael, Thu, 29 Sep 2005 09:41:26 -0700 reply
PS - I warn you, if there's still no response to this after a few more days, I will assume that you all could not be happier with what I'm doing and will be thrilled with whatever I decide to do next :) (or you have filtered this mail into the bit bucket and won't care either way). Complaints after the fact won't carry much weight.

Simon Michael wrote:

POLL

  • The front page discussion box says "UserDiscussion page - Low traffic, good for beginner questions and discussion". I'm not sure we're using it that way. We've tried various single and split user/developer discussion pages in the past (see http://zwiki.org/DiscussionPages). Now I'd like you all to tell me what you'd prefer. Should we:

a. keep discussing a wide range of topics here on UserDiscussion, including development issues and site issues, to avoid fragmentation and confusion ?

b. as above, but rename UserDiscussion back to GeneralDiscussion for clarity ?

c. revive the DevDiscussion? page and try to move the general development and site discussions over there ?

d. as above, but don't bother with DevDiscussion?; just use or create appropriate pages around the wiki ?

e. something else ?

mail setup news and POLL --DeanG, Thu, 29 Sep 2005 10:37:16 -0700 reply
My vote is for "B."

Regarding Developer stuff, whether it's asked to be in Issue items or it's own list, those discussions aren't well suited to wiki. When topic looks significant, schedule or agenda-item IRC meetings, or discuss it in an issue or the topic page.

mail setup news and POLL --Simon Michael, Thu, 29 Sep 2005 13:27:07 -0700 reply
Hi DeanG,

Regarding Developer stuff, whether it's asked to be in Issue items or it's own list, those discussions aren't well suited to wiki.

Why ?
When topic looks significant, schedule or agenda-item IRC meetings
I agree this is good to do at times, IRC is much higher-bandwidth. It may often be nice to cc the summary or transcript to some page afterward.

mail setup news and POLL --TomPurl, Thu, 29 Sep 2005 14:09:30 -0700 reply
I've tried replying using e-mail twice over the last two days and neither message has shown up on this page. It's not a biggie, I just thought you'd like to know.

I agree with Dean. B sounds good to me. If you're going to try and save 99% of your dicussions in a wiki, then only one "discussion" page is probably the best bet.

mail setup news and POLL --Simon Michael, Thu, 29 Sep 2005 14:35:50 -0700 reply
TomPurl wrote:

I've tried replying using e-mail twice over the last two days and neither message has shown up on this page. It's not a biggie, I just thought you'd like to know.
Definitely, thanks. Could you try one more reply to this and I'll check the logs.

mail setup news and POLL --Frank Laurijssens, Thu, 29 Sep 2005 15:00:26 -0700 reply
I'd prefer (b). It's impossible to keep discussions separated anyway. (d) could be a good alternative, it's a wiki, after all ;-) .

brackets hard for non-us users ? --Frank Laurijssens, Thu, 29 Sep 2005 15:23:27 -0700 reply

As I mentioned, Alex Limi says brackets are hard to type for non-us users. Your thoughts ?

Most non-us layouts are shown here.

I think it's personal. As you can see, most layouts are similar to the stantard US layout, some have the brackets as an Alt-GR (right ALT) code on the number keys, and a few have a shorter left-shift key with both brackets left from the letter Z on one key (shift-] for '['). That's the hardesr one, IMHO.

I wonder if we should be think about adding one more optional syntax ? If you could have any way of indicating a wiki link, what would it be?

What about making the delimiters configurable, and use brackets by default? I don't care if anyone wants to use =-=+= and =+=-= as delimiters, or '(( and ))', or anything else, FWIW.

brackets hard for non-us users ? --DeanG, Thu, 29 Sep 2005 15:27:17 -0700 reply
There's a general feeling that it takes a lot of time to resolve wiki links.. Pages with a lot of freeform links render slower, etc.

Would forcing the user to define their wikilink syntax preferences (on an admin level) speed this up?

...then there's the matter of conflicts between wiklink delimiters and the text markup delimiters..

mail-ins not appearing on the wiki, bugfix --Simon Michael, Thu, 29 Sep 2005 15:39:33 -0700 reply
Tom, there was a bug in allSubscriptionsFor which made it think you and the other people who have selected "all edits" were not subscribed. Your mail-ins should show up now.

Another problem is that you should have received some kind of bounce mail. This seems to have stopped working, I have opened issue #1166 to continue investigations later.

Thanks!

brackets hard for non-us users ? --Simon Michael, Thu, 29 Sep 2005 15:42:46 -0700 reply
Frank Laurijssens wrote:

http://www-306.ibm.com/software/globalization/topics/keyboards/registry_index.jsp
Interesting, thanks for the info

DeanG wrote:

Would forcing the user to define their wikilink syntax preferences (on an admin level) speed this up?
No, I don't think so.

mail setup news and POLL --Simon Michael, Thu, 29 Sep 2005 16:28:34 -0700 reply
Frank Laurijssens wrote:

I'd prefer (a).

I'll note here that Frank (presumably) changed his vote to (b). (If you're wondering where the mailout for this edit went, it has (bewerken) in the subject).

brackets hard for non-us users ? --Simon Michael, Thu, 29 Sep 2005 16:35:47 -0700 reply
That keyboard site is excellent. I see the problem with [] for eg norwegian users, right alt would be a pain. At least, for me; they probably are more used to it.

I chatted with RaFromBRC? (Wicked) about alternatives and I couldn't find anything better than (( )) that is at most a shift-key away on world keyboards. Even though too many options and ways to do it is bad, and mediawiki is unlikely to move away from brackets any time soon, I'm thinking of adding parentheses support as another option (use_doubleparentheses_links, off by default).

include other zwikipage with zpt --JózsefJároli, Fri, 30 Sep 2005 02:32:43 -0700 reply
Since I am not a zope wizard, I would like to ask you to help me to find a way to include an other (formatted) Zwiki page from a ParentWiki or SubWiki. I could find only DTML example for that in DTMLCookbook. In other words, I am looking for the ZPT equivalent of this DTML code:

  <dtml-with parentwiki>
  <dtml-var "PAGE(bare=1)"> - just content
  </dtml-with parentwiki>  

Thank you in advance!

include other zwikipage with zpt --Simon Michael, Fri, 30 Sep 2005 02:38:44 -0700 reply
Hi József,

something like this should do it:

 <div tal:content="structure python:here.include('SomeOtherPage')" />

where "here" could be any wiki page.

include other zwikipage with zpt --Simon Michael, Fri, 30 Sep 2005 02:42:15 -0700 reply
Or, without using zwiki's include utility:

 <div tal:content="structure python:container.SomeOtherPage(REQUEST=request,bare=1)" />

http://notes.demo.zwiki.org --Simon Michael, Fri, 30 Sep 2005 03:58:33 -0700 reply
This is a small demo of a zwiki set up as a personal notes wiki/outliner. The wikipage template has been customized and had some things moved around, mainly.

http://notes.demo.zwiki.org --DeanG, Fri, 30 Sep 2005 06:24:22 -0700 reply
http://notes.demo.zwiki.org/StyleSheet

Cool. Added it as as example on the PersonalWiki page.

mail setup news and POLL --DeanG, Fri, 30 Sep 2005 06:27:25 -0700 reply
Why I've found wiki to leave me without perspective on dev. discussions, but have found that in patches and IRC discussions.

I like the status flag on pages.

An example of why it's hard to have dev. discussions on wiki.. Getting a shared mindset on architectural values regarding the product. In this case, adding Properties on Zwiki pages. This seems like something which might be welcome, as it leverages Zopes object database, but in the context of Zwiki (product), it may not be technically feasible (too much mainteance--catalog, upgrades, conditionals) or socially (too much clutter on the edit page, KISS, ??). This has best exemplified when someone wants to add a field to the tracker. Here we've talked in patches, or in specific case analysis on IRC.

mail-ins not appearing on the wiki, bugfix --tom, Fri, 30 Sep 2005 07:02:39 -0700 reply
I don't know if you'll ever see this, but thanks just the same!

Tom, there was a bug in allSubscriptionsFor which made it think you and the other people who have selected "all edits" were not subscribed. Your mail-ins should show up now.

Another problem is that you should have received some kind of bounce mail. This seems to have stopped working, I have opened issue #1166 to continue investigations later.

Thanks!

-- forwarded from http://zwiki.org/GeneralDiscussion#msg433C6D33.20300@joyful.com

mail-ins not appearing on the wiki, bugfix --tom, Fri, 30 Sep 2005 07:04:33 -0700 reply
Crap. I seem to have double-subscribed myself. Sorry to be such a pain.

I don't know if you'll ever see this, but thanks just the same!
Tom, there was a bug in allSubscriptionsFor which made it think you and the other people who have selected "all edits" were not subscribed. Your mail-ins should show up now.

Another problem is that you should have received some kind of bounce mail. This seems to have stopped working, I have opened issue #1166 to continue investigations later.

Thanks!

-- forwarded from http://zwiki.org/GeneralDiscussion#msg433C6D33.20300@joyful.com

-- forwarded from http://zwiki.org/GeneralDiscussion#msg59863.159.53.110.143.1128088957.squirrel@mail.zoper.com

mail-ins not appearing on the wiki, bugfix --Simon Michael, Fri, 30 Sep 2005 09:00:34 -0700 reply
tom wrote:

Crap. I seem to have double-subscribed myself.

Yes, you can see it at http://zwiki.org/GeneralDiscussion/subscribeform . Just unsubscribe one or the other there.

In other news, I have been playing with thunderbird filter rules to get both a discussion and an edits folder from a single edits subscription. Seems to be working well now.

mail setup news and POLL --Simon Michael, Fri, 30 Sep 2005 10:08:19 -0700 reply
Simon Michael wrote: a. keep discussing a wide range of topics here on UserDiscussion,

including development issues and site issues, to avoid fragmentation and confusion ?

b. as above, but rename UserDiscussion back to GeneralDiscussion for clarity ?

So far it's 3-0 for b, indicating that keeping a healthy central gathering-place is more important than reducing traffic for new users right now. More votes are welcome, meanwhile I'll move ahead with this so that things are clearer when the next release goes out.

renaming --Simon Michael, Fri, 30 Sep 2005 10:12:39 -0700 reply
Checking the backlinks, I can see this rename is going to be slow because I put "Archived UserDiscussion" on every archived page. I guess I'll stop doing that.

renaming --Simon Michael, Fri, 30 Sep 2005 10:39:55 -0700 reply
For the interest of wiki admins, here are more of the real-life details:

Renaming UserDiscussion went along happily for 3 minutes; I could see the backlinks pages being updated in event.log, notifications being sent out to edits subscribers, and the site was still usable via zope's other threads as you'd expect (though less responsive; we don't have the memory to run a lot of threads right now).

At the end it failed, because there is already a GeneralDiscussion page; the transaction aborted and all those edits were rolled back. But of course the mails have already been sent, so it's going to send those out again. This is where you need to use a MaildropHost? with the transaction-aware checkbox checked, if you need to prevent such premature mail-outs.

The GeneralDiscussion page looked like something I wanted to keep around for later; it demonstrates the message-board-style subtopics listing. So I renamed it, but forgot to check it's backlinks; there are 112, including many of the wiki's biggest pages, so this was a rash rename. I've let it continue; it's been chugging along for 10 minutes.

In the past, a heavy long-running operation like this would almost always grow zope's memory usage to the point of exceeding our quota, zope would hang or crash and we'd be back to square one. These days that doesn't happen, zope memory leaks have been fixed and zwiki uses the catalog to minimize the number of zodb objects that must be loaded into memory. It's been chugging along for 15 minutes so far, and holding steady at 150M.

renaming --Simon Michael, Fri, 30 Sep 2005 10:50:01 -0700 reply
Did I mention it's chugging along nicely ? I think I did.

Also, note that I'm continuing discussion on the page while the long-running transaction is renaming it. I'm interested to see what happens. Will it fail in the end with a write conflict error ? I do hope not.

renaming --Simon Michael, Fri, 30 Sep 2005 11:28:42 -0700 reply
Argh!

First, let me not get confused here. I'm posting comments on UserDiscussion, but renaming GeneralDiscussion right now, so in theory that would be fine..

However it is getting a ZODB conflict error and starting over again. The first attempt went for 18 minutes, the second for 22, and it's currently on the third and presumably final attempt.

I have seen this before with large zwiki renames. I'd guess the conflict here is indeed because of my posts to UserDiscussion; it links to GeneralDiscussion so it's one of the pages that the rename will want to update. So I'll wait until it completes before sending this.

It would seem nicer if conflicts while updating backlink were just ignored, rather than aborting the whole rename; I'll look into that.

All this generated 300 or 400 mail-outs. I don't feel too badly about this noise as only we 5 whole-wiki all-edits subscribers saw them. For the next attempts I'll type the rename command in the url so I can add the sendmail= argument.

Ok, it went into a fourth attempt.. enough is enough. I restarted zope.

renaming --Simon Michael, Fri, 30 Sep 2005 11:34:31 -0700 reply
Hmm. I already have:

    def replaceLinksThroughoutWiki(self,oldlink,newlink,REQUEST=None):
        BLATHER('replacing all %s links with %s' % (oldlink,newlink))
        for p in self.backlinksFor(oldlink):
            # this is an extensive, risky operation which can fail for
            # a number of reasons - carry on regardless so we don't
            # block renames
            # poor caching
            try: p.getObject().replaceLinks(oldlink,newlink,REQUEST)
            except:
                BLATHER('replaceLinks failed to update %s links in %s' \
                     % (oldlink,p.id))

So if I understand correctly, the conflict is caused by something else. Well I'm out of time for this; I'll delete the silly thing, a far cheaper operation.

Ideally, updating links and saving edits would be instantaneous and then the issue of conflicts would not arise.

GeneralDiscussion renamed; change your subject! --Simon Michael, Fri, 30 Sep 2005 12:00:25 -0700 reply
With the old page out of the way, renaming UserDiscussion with it's 40 backlinks took 5 minutes and completed without a conflict.

I used sendmail= to suppress mail but it doesn't stop the mailouts from link updates, I forgot.

So we are back to GeneralDiscussion, as in 2002-2003. When you reply to any recent threads, remember to change or get rid of the [UserDiscussion] in the subject! If you do, you'll avoid accidentally re-creating the old page, having to move comments to the proper place, and all that hassle. It's almost impossible to remember this, so be warned. :)

That was more of a job than I planned. I think I'm done for now.

back to templates --simon, Tue, 01 Nov 2005 08:12:40 -0800 reply
A follow up to the templates thread last month.

I'd like to agree on some standard terms to help us when discussing template-like things. Last time, we wrote:

    * Skin templates - the ZPTs? (zope page templates), dtml methods, files and whatnot, for customizing the skin ?
    * TestPage templates specifically ? Ie you're seeing places where ZPTs? are not allowed or not used ?
    * moin-style template pages ? Where you can set up sample pages to help you create new ones
    * wikipedia-style templates (macros) ? Which make it easy to transclude common content into many pages ?
    * what I have at times called wiki templates ? Ie "basic" and any other pre-made wikis installed for use in the Add ZWiki form ?
    * customized pages that use wiki pages as a template

Here's a start - any comments ?:

Template pages may be

back to templates --Simon Michael, Tue, 01 Nov 2005 08:13:53 -0800 reply
After all that.. posted on the wrong page!! Sorry, reposting on GeneralDiscussion.