2002/02/01 07:17 US/Pacific (via web):
Hi! I am very interested in Zwiki: First I like to know if you can write articles/books in this fashion: -Can you include pictures? -Can you create a table of content?

Second: - The idea to have a combination of a maillinglist and a web forum is great. Is there a howto how to integrate this to an existing mailinglist? We are running mailman.


BillSeitz, 2002/02/06 06:50 US/Pacific (via web):
I just unsubscribed "yvonne@thewatch.net" from the page.

BillSeitz, 2002/02/06 13:38 US/Pacific (via web):
Just thought I'd show something I'm working on - use ZWiki for a WebLogs? (integrated with traditional wiki pages). I'm finally attacking the issue of rendering multiple entries to a single viewable page... http://webseitz.fluxent.com/wiki/WebLogOutput

Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/02/06 18:53 US/Pacific (via mail):
test 2

Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/02/06 18:56 US/Pacific (via mail):

> I just unsubscribed "yvonne@thewatch.net" from the page.

thank you >:/

Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/02/06 18:57 US/Pacific (via mail):
Mail-in to zwiki@zwiki.org works again - use that one. The zwiki@joyful.com backup alias has stopped working, will fix later.

Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/02/06 21:09 US/Pacific (via mail):
Disabled view management screens permission for Anonymous on this site - let me know if it breaks something.

Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/02/06 22:32 US/Pacific (via mail):
I have broken zwiki page copying (and adding tracker issues). Please stand by.

2002/02/07 08:29 US/Pacific (via web):
Can someone point me to where I can learn how to embed DTML in a Zwiki?

BillSeitz, 2002/02/07 09:56 US/Pacific (via web):
The key, if you want a page to render both StructuredText and DTML, is to change the page page_type (in the Property tab of the management interface) to structuredtextdtml.

2002/02/07 10:05 US/Pacific (via web):
Just a quick note, i added another script (python) to handle mailin on the WikiMail page.

2002/02/07 11:29 US/Pacific (via web):
Where the bloody hell are all these damn spammers coming from? >:(

SimonMichael, 2002/02/07 19:21 US/Pacific (via web):
ZwikiTesting?. Made unit tests runnable on this site again. For a while, this site's manage_addProduct![' ZWiki'] had no .manage_addZWikiPage attribute. Now it's come back, no idea why.

Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/02/07 20:23 US/Pacific (via mail):
This mystery problem was also behind yesterday's breakage of copy & add issue.

Tracker issues can now be submitted via email - see #64 tracker issues can be submitted via email.

Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/02/08 06:42 US/Pacific (via mail):
Alas! TheSpamProblem has officially arrived at zwiki.org. Time for us to do whatever real mailing lists do.

If I can I will set up razor-based spam checking on the server. Other options include some form of moderation, and restricting mailin to subscribers or anyone who responds correctly to a mailback. The latter seems like a decent solution actually.

Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/02/08 09:18 US/Pacific (via mail):
Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com> writes:
> I forgot to update the site's mail_from property now that we are back to
> using zwiki@zwiki.org. Replies to mailouts should now work again.
> Cc'ing the tracker.

Ok, the current script doesn't handle both at once. This may become moot when we get a separate mail address.

Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/02/08 13:36 US/Pacific (via mail):

> I have been playing with ZWiki for a while now and I have had some
> successes. But I still have a lot of questions and suggestions.
> - I have created a new ZWikiWeb? I call clean that simplifies the
> distributed one and does some substantial refactoring of the
> distributed version's header and footer methods. I think that
> ZWikiWeb?(s) can be a fruitful area of collaboration, but I wonder if
> the zexp method of transporting them is the best way. Maybe I

Hi Bob, thanks for these comments. I'm not sure. WikiTemplates shows some of my uncertainty about this, and I'm glad to see others working on ZWikiWebs? (which I thought about renaming to WikiTemplates ?) But current releases can use either filesystem or zodb-based templates. I just added a note on this.

> - I need to have complete authentication for the site using one of
> the ZoPe authentication products. This mostly works, but there is

Can you tell us more ? I'm looking for a good simple zwiki membership solution to replace some ancient PTK-based systems.

> an annoying mis-feature: user options are kept in cookies which
> are tied to the browser. I need them to be kept with the user's
> login record. It would be nice if there were a ZWiki plug-in
> API that allowed options to be kept in different places. (Also,


> - I would like to have a different look (like Yahoo) for the page
> hierarchy feature, but the formatting for it is built-in to ZWiki.
> Is there some way that the formatting of the hierarchy could be
> refactored out of the walking part and a way for overriding it
> could be provided?

Yes, that needs doing. That formatting is currently hard-coded in [zwikidir/Parents.py]?. NB I have a feeling others might have done some work in this direction. I know WikiForNow made some cleanups.

> Also, is there an easy way to prevent multiple parentage for ZWiki
> pages?

You could change reparent (in the same file) so that it accepts only a single parent instead of a list.

> P.S. Why do we use WikiWikiWeb:UgLy ZoPe here when it could be free
> linked as Zope?

I thought it better than incurring the ongoing mental load of using two linking conventions on one site. It's arguable though.

Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/02/08 13:40 US/Pacific (via mail):

> Is zwiki.org running Apache? If so, would it be possible to put the

No. I have been using http://zwiki.org/AccessRule/view_source in my root folder and a siteroot in the zwiki folder, though this will be changing soon.

Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/02/08 13:49 US/Pacific (via mail):
zwiki@zwiki.org (FranOReilly) writes:
> Anyway have a look at AssociateUploadsWithWikiPages for a fuller
> explanation and code mods.

Nice one! Say more about how you're using this if you care to.

Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/02/08 15:26 US/Pacific (new page):

simon, 2002/02/08 15:39 US/Pacific (via web):
Thanks to JosYule mailins to non-existent pages now works, creating the new page and linking it here on GeneralDiscussion (for the moment).

2002/02/11 07:42 US/Pacific (via web):
Quick Question - I'm having problems using Mozilla .0.9.7 with Zwiki - the forms don't seem to send to the server properly.. Anybody else having this problem? JY

(ps. the add a comment seems to work, tho the edit this page one was giving me problems at home - will try in the SandBox here.)

(pps. girrrr, as per usual, things work fine here, but not locally. huh. i've got the latest release version of zwiki 098... any magic updates since then that could effect this behaviour?)

SimonMichael, 2002/02/11 23:39 US/Pacific (via web):
(repost) heads-up: zwiki.org is moving!

It may take a day or so for dns changes to propagate to you, which could lead to some confusion if you are making edits. The new ip address is

2002/02/12 17:51 GMT (via web):
(you are now looking at the NEW server).

SimonMichael, 2002/02/14 00:14 GMT (via web):
test comment from mozilla 0.9.8

yay! I also saw the problem with mozilla 0.9.7, but it seems fixed on their end.

2002/02/14 13:52 GMT (via web):
Ya, i just upgraded to 0.9.8 and everything is good. The email in/out for zwiki is really pretty amazing - in our office, we have some folks that just want email - not even web pages - so we start a conversation (zwiki page) and subscribe them to it - anything going on via the webpage is sent to them as email - any emails they send are added to the wiki - win win for everyone!


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/02/14 19:23 GMT (via mail):
Exactly. Thanks for the feedback, it's good to hear of other real-world experiences.

I'm looking at wikimail usability issues right now in client work. I need wikimail to be functionally equivalent to a mailing list for end users who would be scared off by unfamiliar technology. They should be able to participate from their email client and shouldn't need to know there is something.. funny going on behind the scenes with the list server..

So in this particular application, all mail is archived on a single page, there is only one place to subscribe to, most wiki features are hidden for now. I'm about to add some support for (a) subject headers and (b) hiding recipients. The latter turns out to be a requirement for usability since non-techie users unfailingly reply to any and all address in the headers regardless of reply-to.

PS has anyone looked at the new MailBoxer? product yet ?

Jos Yule <jos@trapeze.com>, 2002/02/14 19:46 GMT (via mail):
Huh, MailBoxer?:"http://www.zope.org/Members/mjablonski/MailBoxer" looks pretty cool... some overlap of functionality, eh? I might install it and give it a go - will report back if i do.

i'd be interested in knowing how to dynamically subscribe users to a zwiki page - though email. That'd be great. All you other points - subject lines and hidden to: list are good as well.


Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/02/14 20:19 GMT (via mail):
fixed a mailin problem relating to the site move.

Speaking of which. Zwiki.org is now served by Imeme, after a year or two of excellent, friendly and dependable hosting and support from CodeIt?. Thanks Codeit!. Recommended.

Now Imeme's state-of-the-art jail-based setup and support for dns/email/domain self-management is providing me with great flexibility and freedom for all kinds of shenanigans. I'm very very pleased with it. Together with a new registrar (http://123cheapdomains.com) many things have become easier.

So in the end I moved over the original data.fs in order to preserve page modification times. Copied over various products. Did an easy upgrade from zope 2.3 to 2.5. Basically the move seems to have gone stupendously well. And if anything bad is going to happen, it will be now. :)

2002/02/14 21:31 GMT (via web):
Hey, so i was thinking about a "print" link for zwiki. Basically, this would render the page without the header and footer - just the contents of the page (theoretically nicer for printing). Is there an easy way to "turn off" the header and footer? Could we add a attribute to the url that the header and footer could check to see if they should render themselves? Is this of use to anybody but me? ;) --JY

''See MeatballWiki:NakedWiki.''

simon, 2002/02/15 00:12 GMT (via web):
(steps from time machine) What, you mean like http://zwiki.org/FrontPage?bare=1 or http://zwiki.org/FrontPage?noheader=1&nofooter=1 ?

2002/02/15 07:19 GMT (via web):
Where in the docs can I find an explanation of page_type property settings for a Zwiki? I stumbled somewhat by accident on the fact that I can change it from structuredtext to structuredtextdtml and then it will accept and execute DTML correctly.

But as far as I can find by searching this Wiki, there's no explanation of that property anywhere.


Dan Shafer, 2002/02/15 07:29 GMT (via web):
(That previous question came from me, Dan Shafer. I hadn't set my prefs yet, I guess. Thought I had.)

Anyway, that brought up another issue.

On my Zwiki, I don't have all the properties this Zwiki defines. I know I can add my own. But it seems to me like page_type should be a pre-defined, built-in property of all Zwikis, no?

Dan Shafer, 2002/02/15 07:32 GMT (via web):
Another question. (Sorry for being a pest but I think I'm in love with Zwikis!)

I'd like to set up my Zwiki so that the "with heading" checkbox is on by default. This doesn't seem to be a property setting, so I assume it's in the Python code somewhere. Am I right?

If so, can anyone point me to a good starting point for digging into the Python code?

2002/02/15 14:01 GMT (via web):
Oh ya, that bare=1 is great! Thanks! JY

Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/02/15 17:49 GMT (via mail):
zwiki@zwiki.org ( writes:
> Where in the docs can I find an explanation of page_type property

Here's some: TextFormattingRulesAdvanced? and it's links. Note we hid the page_type option on this site by default; turn on AdvancedEditOptions? to see it in edit forms.

The popup menu in the edit form is probably the most complete list of page types (issuedtml is another, not listed). "zwiki" in this context means standard wiki linking + zwiki's extended linking (remote links, square brackets etc).

Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/02/15 17:56 GMT (via mail):

> On my Zwiki, I don't have all the properties this Zwiki defines. I
> know I can add my own. But it seems to me like page_type should be a
> pre-defined, built-in property of all Zwikis, no?

yup.. previous message should clarify how to reveal it. Also, if you go to page/manage_propertiesForm you'll always see the page_type property.

> Another question. (Sorry for being a pest but I think I'm in love with
> Zwikis!)

Keep 'em coming!

> I'd like to set up my Zwiki so that the "with heading" checkbox is on
> by default. This doesn't seem to be a property setting, so I assume
> it's in the Python code somewhere. Am I right?

It's in the standard_wiki_footer dtml method in your wiki folder. ([standard_wiki_footer/view_source]?) The default code there turns it on only for ...Discussion and IssueNo?... pages.

Dan, 2002/02/15 19:23 GMT (via web):
It's in the standard_wiki_footer dtml method in your wiki folder. (view_source) The default code there turns it on only for ...Discussion and IssueNo??... pages.

Yep. There it is works like a charm. Remove the dtml and voila!

So, aside from the built-in header/footer stuff, are there specific Python source files you'd recommend I look at as I dig further into this Zwiki stuff?

Dan, 2002/02/15 19:24 GMT (via web):

Check out my Weblog link

I mentioned my newfound love for Zwiki on my Radio UserLand Weblog.

SimonMichael, 2002/02/15 20:50 GMT (via web):
Mailouts now use bcc for delivery (requires MailHostFix? product to take effect). Also some mail loop protection has been added to the mailin method. Simultaneously subscribing a wiki to a mailing list and vice-versa should now work (untested).

SimonMichael, 2002/02/15 21:05 GMT (via web):
I didn't receive Dan's last two comments by email.. did anyone else ? I could blame this on the mailout upgrade.

Yay Dan! Thanks for the link.

Off the top of my head: ZWikiPage.py is the big one, with most of the functionality and api. Defaults.py and Regexps.py may be of interest. wikis/ contains source for (the filesystem-based) wiki templates. Also try the ClassDiagram.

Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/02/15 21:24 GMT (via mail):
Mail-in to bugs@zwiki.org or tracker@zwiki.org to create a tracker issue now basically works I believe. You can put an issue category followed by a colon at the start of the subject. There's an open issue with subjects getting truncated.

I still kind of like the social value of seeing real email addresses on this site, but I may change the subscribeform to show only the part before the @. I want to try these right in the footer also.

Thoughts ?

Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/02/15 23:01 GMT (via mail):
Veering dangerously close to a mention on ScriptingNews?, too.

Dan, 2002/02/19 08:27 GMT (via web):
A couple more questions have arisen as I'm bringing up my members-only Zwiki.

1. How can I change the background color on the page? I have changed the bgcolor in both the body tag and the table tag in the standard header to no avail.
2. Why does a link like Day50Lesson not create an auto-link for a new page creation? I had to surround it in square brackets.
3. Am I missing something about how to get email subscriptions working? They are clearly not functioning for me.


simon, 2002/02/19 15:16 GMT (via web):

  1. the body tag in standard_wiki_header should normally take care of it. Perhaps view the rendered html source to see why not.
  2. It's not a wikiname as defined by standard zwiki - digits may appear only at the end of a valid alphabetic WikiName. You can adjust this in Regexps.py.
  3. There are a couple of prerequisites for mail-in and mail-out which I think are on WikiMail. Post more details of your setup if needed.

simon, 2002/02/19 15:56 GMT (via web):
page edits occasionally very slow for some reason

BillSeitz, 2002/02/19 16:16 GMT (via web):
Welcome to iMeme. I experience the same thing, and others are complaining a bit on the support list. Let them know.

2002/02/19 21:14 GMT (via web):
Thanks, simon. I got mail-out working easily. Piece of cake. I understand the problem with the Wiki Names with embedded digits. I'll figure out something. Still digging on the other issue.

SimonMichael, 2002/02/20 17:35 GMT (via web):
Let me know if you have a preference for how [IssueNo0099 []? links containing local zope paths should show the complete path] should work.

SimonMichael, 2002/02/20 19:43 GMT (via web):
WikiMail documentation updated. Let me know if you have feedback.

BillSeitz, 2002/02/20 21:35 GMT (via web):
I have a Python method (for exploding title WikiName), plus the DTML pages which provide the historical views for http://webseitz.fluxent.com/wiki to provide if you want to integrate them into the core code. Are you interested? If so, how should I deliver them?

Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/02/20 22:03 GMT (via mail):
Thanks - yes, but I couldn't see what these are about, can you say more ? Your site is looking great by the way.

Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/02/22 06:19 GMT (new page):

SimonMichael, 2002/02/22 06:54 GMT (via web):
Yeow, ready for a different zwiki look ? See LaloMartins' WikiTree:FrontPage

SimonMichael, 2002/02/22 18:46 GMT (via web):
the zwiki product on this site was broken for a few hours.. uploaded some bad changes last night, thought I had refreshed but I hadn't.

I was looking into doing an edit preview. It's not so easy right now, because all the render methods expect an actual ZWikiPage instance to work with, especially the dtml modes which make use of DTMLDocument's functionality. We need a better factoring here.

BillSeitz, 2002/02/22 20:35 GMT (via web):
To integrate weblogging with wiki, I do 2 things. (a) I use brackets to make blog entries look like z2002-02-22-a (so they're create-date-stamped), then define various DTML views to either show only blog (WebSeitzWiki:WebLogHistory) or non-blog (WebSeitzWiki:WikiHistory) entries, or else show them together, but rendered differently (WebSeitzWiki:FrontPage). I also made a WebSeitzWiki:BiggestPages list to find the longest pages, and moved the traditional RecentChanges? format to WebSeitzWiki:AllChanges.

2002/02/22 20:37 GMT (via web):
Help. I've spent all morning looking for a couple of easy answers, or so I think, but I can't find them. So, hoping that I'm not misusing this forum, I thought I'd ask. Two questions:

  1. I installed Zope and Zwiki, no problem. But when I added my zwiki web object, it can only be accessed though port 8080/zwiki. I'd like to change that to my root on port 80. How do I do that?
  2. When someone comes to the zwiki homepage, there's no place to login. I have a cookie in my browser from logging into zope's 8080/manage, so I'm OK, but how do I let others zwiki?

2002/02/22 23:43 GMT (via web):
Nevermind about the port thing, but I don't know how to let people login... how do you handle this?

Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/02/22 23:43 GMT (via mail):
Bill - ok I see what you're referring to. Can you package your weblog-site as a wiki template ?

Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/02/22 23:53 GMT (via mail):

> Help. I've spent all morning looking for a couple of easy answers, or
> so I think, but I can't find them. So, hoping that I'm not misusing
> this forum, I thought I'd ask. Two questions:

You've found the right place (for zwiki questions, at least)

> 1. I installed Zope and Zwiki, no problem. But when I added my zwiki
> web object, it can only be accessed though port 8080/zwiki. I'd like
> to change that to my root on port 80. How do I do that?

There are several ways to do this in zope, and it depends very much on the details of your setup. I use the virtual host monster product and custom configuration provided by my zope hosting provider.

> 2. When someone comes to the zwiki homepage, there's no place to
> login. I have a cookie in my browser from logging into zope's
> 8080/manage, so I'm OK, but how do I let others zwiki?

If you want to open your wiki to public access, you'll need to adjust some zope permissions, usually on the wiki folder. Do an "Add zwiki web" and I think you'll see the details there.

2002/02/22 23:55 GMT (via web):
I don't want to open it to the world. I just want some way of letting certain people login to my zwiki and make changes. I added another user to zope, but I don't know how to make zwiki "prompt" the user for a login.

SimonMichael, 2002/02/22 23:57 GMT (via web):
PS on the other hand if you want to restrict access to members and provide some way for members to sign up, you'll need to set up exUserFolder or one of the other zope membership systems.

SimonMichael, 2002/02/23 00:03 GMT (via web):
This could be resolved more easily on irc or even ChatRoom, but not now since I'm leaving..

Is your wiki public or restricted right now ? If you restart your browser and visit the wiki does it require any login ?

2002/02/23 00:05 GMT (via web):
it doesn't require a login. but since it doesn't require a login, it only lets visitors "view" the wiki. none of the "edit" options popup.

SimonMichael, 2002/02/23 00:30 GMT (via web):
So anonymous users can view your wiki but don't see the edit options popping up. Here's what I would expect to see if I'm a user who can read but not write, assuming a default wiki based on the zwikidotorg template, created via "Add zwiki web": I would expect to see "edit this page" and if I click it, the edit form will be pink and say "login required", and if I change the text and click Change it will prompt for a password. Is that what you've got ?

2002/02/23 00:34 GMT (via web):
Wow, you're almost perfect! Everything is default (except I'm running Zope on port 80 now)... unfortunately it doesn't work like you might think. for some reason when you get to the website it's already pink and there are no additional links (like edit this page) at the bottom. since the edit this page link doesn't show up, there's no way to ask for a login. look at http://ddickens.pepperdine.edu/nomic/ and you'll see what I mean.

SimonMichael, 2002/02/23 00:47 GMT (via web):
Ok great. The "Anonymous" role does not have "Change ZWiki Pages" permission on your wiki folder. I'm not sure why there's no edit this page link though. Is this zwiki 0.9.8 ?

If not, you could upgrade; or replace your standard_wiki_footer with [zwikidir/wikis/zwikidotorg/standard_wiki_footer]?; or just tell people to add "/editform" in their browser's location field.

SimonMichael, 2002/02/23 01:02 GMT (via web):
Ok! I see the problem, it's a bug in the zwikidotorg template. Disregard my last comment and you might try replacing your footer with [standard_wiki_footer/view_source]? so as to at least get an edit link.

2002/02/23 01:18 GMT (via web):
Well, I suppose that's an improvement.

At least we're getting edit this page on the bottom. Now there's only one problem. Once the edit is over everything is pink again and the cool green box isn't there at the bottom of pages. I'm still logged in, I guess, because I can use the edit this page without re-logging in, but I'm perminently in pink zone.

I can get the cool footer back by logging into my Zope /manage stuff and then going to my zwiki site, but otherwise it doesn't seem to stick.

Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/02/23 01:30 GMT (via mail):
Yes, that's a known a caching behaviour with some browsers. Shift-refresh sometimes makes the pink go away for good.

2002/02/24 09:12 GMT (via web):
remember me? well, I've been customizing a particular ZWiki for a game I'm going to run (called Nomic). anyway, I noticed that for some reason ZWiki starts and stops the webpage inside of the web content section. is there anyway to fix this? I mean, it may not matter for some people. but it makes it difficult to do certain things with content after a body tag.

Simon Michael <simon@joyful.com>, 2002/02/25 01:59 GMT (via mail):
A couple more junk mails landed as issues in the tracker.

Non-subscribers who send to the wiki will now be bounced. I think this is reasonable and have made it the default. Let me know if you see problems.

2002/02/25 20:26 GMT (via web):
The only issue with that is if (when?) we allow remote subscibeing... ie. i both create a new page via email and subscribe to it (actually, the process of creating a new page maybe should subscribe you by default)... I will go over to WikiMail and read up and see if any work on email subscription has been done yet... JY

BillSeitz, 2002/02/26 13:32 GMT (via web):
MichaelSippey? asked me JustOneQuestion?: http://www.theobvious.com/archive.html?022602

2002/02/27 09:46 GMT (via web):
Is there any way to remove the "feature" that pressing the Escape key kills all the text you've entered in an edit form? I'm copying notes from a notebook, and it occasionally slips and hits keys. It's nearly becoming annoying enough to force me to use another client... Is this a bug or simply an unfortunate brainstorm of a sleep-deprived programmer?

Jos Yule <jos@trapeze.com>, 2002/02/27 13:48 GMT (via mail):
I think that that is more of a browser specific problem. Have you tried different browsers? I know the way the textarea tag works on PC's and MAC's for both IE and Netscape is different - cut and paste don't work as consistantly on the mac (for me, YMMV). Anyway, again, its browser behaviour rather then code...


2002/02/27 20:27 GMT (via web):
yeah, figured that out in the whee hours of yesterday morning, and editting in Emacs seems to alleviate. Thanks for the heads up!

2002/02/28 22:52 GMT (via web):
[ Galeon renders this input box strangely, BTW. ]? WRT to dtml in a WikiPage? In the interest of completeness, I felt I should mention that one can set the DEFAULT_PAGE_TYPE in the defaults.py file. In 1.4.0, at least, this is set to structuredtext.

Now, to quietly fade into the ether again....